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Original poster

To think the trump Muslim ban is wrong BUT

267 replies

HannahSmithson45 · 30/01/2017 17:49

Many of the same countries ban entry for people from Israel or who have ever been to Israel.

OP posts:
DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:08

Again thank you Bagel!

jacks11 · 30/01/2017 20:09

When did two wrongs start making a right?

I note that those countries from which the largest number of terrorists to have committed atrocities in the west originate or are funded by- such as Saudi Arabia- are not on the list. Nor are countries which Trumps companies businesses have dealings.

So it seems that the need to protect the US from "bad dudes", as Trump so eloquently puts it, doesn't extend to those where the US has economic interests or if Trump has personal interests in keeping onside. Which makes the idea this is about national security a bit farcical.

Roussette · 30/01/2017 20:09

Yep. Outright ban. For three months at the moment, who knows if it will become permanent. Do you know there are hundreds of people who've been stranded at airports en route to the US. Families split apart. Daughter on the way to the US to see a dying parent, paperwork in place Too late. People who had been granted visas to live in US, all their possessions sold in the country they were leaving, now nowhere to go. A syrian widower who'd lived in US for 20 years, gone to see sick brother back in Syria, can't get back to his children in the US... the list is endless.

Three months is three months too long when this is an Executive Order that hasn't been thought out.

53rdAndBird · 30/01/2017 20:10

If they were capable why were there no placards, none that I saw anyway - on the media about the Boko Haram girls?

Because we're not diplomatic allies with Boko Haram, and aren't planning to extend a state visit to its founder? Because Boko Haram aren't supposed to be leaders of the free world?

Suggesting that people marching against one thing don't really care unless they have also protested against every other bad thing that's ever happened in the world in the exact same way is a bit ridiculous.

CockacidalManiac · 30/01/2017 20:11

Viviennemary

All thIs shit about 'remind me never to vote Labour again!'. From your posts, I'd say that your vote is far, far to the right of that.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:11

I certainly agree it hasn't been thought out and many people will be caught up in the chaos, there were certainly other ways of organizing and implementing this. I am amazed the people around him didn't stop him and come up with other strategies but maybe they didnt want too - rope and hang...

BagelGoesWalking · 30/01/2017 20:14

I think the reason why most people are feeling so aggrieved about Trump is that, generally, we held the USA as a country which upheld, in the main, the important democratic principles.

Other countries, we're talking about like China, Nigeria, Arab states like Saudi Arabia were certainly never going to be held up as beacons of light regarding human rights, much less women's rights, so the disappointment in America is more pronounced now. Also, we'd got used to the Obama's charisma, eloquence and class...

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:14

Oh I see so its not women's rights in general then or an opportunity to use the rallies to being attention back to all the women suffering right now, ie the Yadizi girls stolen to be ISIS sex slaves.

Its just the women who have been offended by Trumps remarks. I see. The leader of the free world....

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:15

Suggesting that people marching against one thing don't really care unless they have also protested against every other bad thing that's ever happened in the world in the exact same way is a bit ridiculous.

^^ NO I think its ridiculous to hold world wide marches and not one mention i could see of the women who are suffering right now. They could have done it at the same time, one side for trump one for the Yadiz girls....

KathArtic · 30/01/2017 20:15

69 people were killed by lawnmowers in the US Shock

CockacidalManiac · 30/01/2017 20:15

And all these 'I'm complacent and I'm proud!' types; what do you do about Saudi and Nigeria? I imagine the square root of fuck all. You're like those who wouldn't piss on the homeless unless you can use them in a refugee bashing 'what happens to all our homeless?' situation.
Just sit back and think about nothing but your own bubble, because it's usually those of us who oppose Trump who tend to care about all that other stuff too.

user7214743615 · 30/01/2017 20:15

its a temporary ban though for three months....not like the other places mentioned which have permanent bans.

Wow. Great. Only 3 months for the graduate students, scientific researchers, workers for tech companies etc who were stopped from coming back to their homes and jobs in the US, to their families in the US, to their pets in the US.

What exactly do you expect these people to do for 3 months? 3 months of uncertainty, not knowing if they can return to their lives. 3 months away from their homes. 3 months aways from their jobs, so probably no jobs to return to. And how are they meant to live financially?

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:16

I agree Bagel, I understand that anger too - but it still irks me. Anyway I am stepping away from this thread now, Smile

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:17

kath I saw that stat too - how!!

CockacidalManiac · 30/01/2017 20:17

^^ NO I think its ridiculous to hold world wide marches and not one mention i could see of the women who are suffering right now. They could have done it at the same time, one side for trump one for the Yadiz girls....

Why don't you get off your arse and do something for a change, instead of sneering at those trying to do something about things that they're worried about. How many marches on the Saudi embassy have you been on?

sonyaya · 30/01/2017 20:17

OP

I disagree with the restrictions Israeli people face and am well aware of the stance many Arab countries take on Israel. Anti semitism is rising very worryingly, and some of the comments from Trump's team have been disgusting.

Do you know thoigh about what Palestinians have to do to get into Israel? Do you think it is easy for them? Do you know about the permits being revoked on security grounds? Many of which belong to people who used to live in what is now Israeli land (pre-1948 british mandate) until forced to leave to make way for the state of Israe? My family were forced from their home in 1948 when Israel was created and it was only once my grandmother got her british passport that she was able to even get back into the place which had been her home.

Please do not simplify the very complex middle eastern situation the way you have and portray Israel as an innocent victim. There are no innocents in that conflict.

Also frankly people have far lower expectations of places like Syria than they do of America, which is supposedly a leading bastion of the free world. It shouldn't be difficult to work out why America behaving this shockingly is far greater news than Arab countries whose behaviour has been shocking in this regard for many years.

53rdAndBird · 30/01/2017 20:20

NO I think its ridiculous to hold world wide marches and not one mention i could see of the women who are suffering right now.

Some of those Yazidi women who have suffered, and escaped, are now refugees. The same refugees that Trump wants to turn away. The same refugees that the protestors think he should not turn away.

Marching with signs to tell ISIS to stop being mean to Yazidi women won't do a thing, because ISIS do not care. Giving those women safe haven via a humane refugee policy actually is important, which is why people feel strongly enough to protest about it.

TheMysteriousJackelope · 30/01/2017 20:21

WrongTrouser Call me a bit old fashioned as this whole democracy notion seems to be getting a bit passe, but isn't that up to Americans to decide, really?

Thank you for your smug little comment. Unfortunately for you I happen to be American.

Roussette · 30/01/2017 20:21

So do you suggest DEbbie that those who are marching against what Trump is doing... because that is all they have marched for... shouldn't bother?

There is a strong possibility that the man Trump appoints tomorrow to the Supreme Court is very very anti abortion. Google his name. Bill Pryor. You'll be shocked at his past and what he advocates. Should Americans just accept that because we didn't march for the Yadizi girls?

ANY protest when something is wrong is good. I don't know how you could disagree with that.

M0stlyHet · 30/01/2017 20:21

To reiterate - these are a complete mix of people, from refugees to people with green cards - that is, people who've been incredibly thoroughly vetted and given indefinite leave to remain. Some of those people with green cards are former army interpreters for the US for whom it is not safe for them to stay in their country of origin.

Saying "but the other countries don't allow Israelis in" is to miss the point completely. This is the US, which has long claimed to be the leader of the free world, removing freedoms from people it has granted them to. This is the US, which claims to have the best constitution in the world, acting in contravention of that constitution (freedom of religion). This is the US, which supposedly has massive checks and balances in its political system to prevent the executive arm (the President) usurping power all to himself, with that same President encouraging his employees to ignore a ruling from a federal judge.

And this is the country with the biggest nuclear arsenal in the world at its disposal, and Trump has his finger on the button.

If you think this is all unimportant, and trivial, and doesn't matter because every country has immigration rules, or the countries these people are coming from are worse (which was kind of the point, because the reason they wanted to leave these countries was to go somewhere better...) then you really need a crash course in politics. And an adjustment of your moral compass, because at the moment, it's pointing all over the place.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:23

Very sad Sony I saw beautiful film called The Lemon Tree about it.

chinam · 30/01/2017 20:24

"I think national borders are there for a reason. That's what makes a country, gives you a sense of pride and achievement"
How can you have a sense of pride and achievement in something you had absolutely no control over? If you are lucky enough to be born in a decent country, you are fortune but that's all. Not everyone gets that opportunity.

DebbieDownersGiveItARest · 30/01/2017 20:26

Roussette Mon 30-Jan-17 20:21:26

No not at all and the abortion stuff is also despicable.
I just find it frustrating that so many are motivated by Trump to march and couldn't have also mentioned the other women who need help right now, and dont seem motivated by these actual crimes going on every day - not even abroad but right here.

BagelGoesWalking · 30/01/2017 20:26

Sonyaya I have said very clearly that I don't think Israel is perfect, I'd be a complete fool to claim that. It's obviously not. Many things have been done which are wrong, unfair and I don't support them.

However, I could go into arguments about Hamas and Hizbollah not actually giving a shit about their own people, they've had many - and pretty decent - offers and opportunities to create a much better life for their populations and have preferred to stay on a collision course. Yasser Arafat received billions from the EU and other foreign govts which could have built schools, hospitals, provided education but the armed struggle was more "important". They are taught to hate and fear a population who could have been good neighbour's. She Israel withdrew from Gaza (and Sinai) they left successful farms, acres of greenhouses which could have continued but they were destroyed.

Again, I am not saying Israel does not react in completely bloody stupid ways sometimes, I despair of the right wing govts they've had, particularly Bibi.

Surreyblah · 30/01/2017 20:26

It's got pretty bad when US government is ignoring its juduciary to enforce illegal government activity. removing aid for organisations enabling safe abortion: that will likely directly lead to womens deaths.

parts of our press personally attacked judges for a legal decision - "enemies of the people" - that Parliament should vote on triggering leaving the EU.

Orwellian stuff.

Shame on the US Trump voters too.