To think the trump Muslim ban is wrong BUT

[HannahSmithson45]

Many of the same countries ban entry for people from Israel or who have ever been to Israel.

Do you know what you have to do to get a green card. The vetting process you go through? To have it illegally denied on a whim is just, well I don't have words. It's unconstitutional, illegal and just plain wrong.

Debbie - I have no idea what Israelis teach their kids. But I do believe that Zionism has a huge influence on matters, I believe that the US, Israel and Saudi are the 3 most powerful nations on Earth and are all tied into each other.

Do any of us really know what's actually going on. We just see what the media feeds us. Some people might say that I'm a conspiracy theorist but I'd rather question things than read the headlines

The problem with the refugees is the muddled situation over EU.

Its so sad that genuine refugees got mixed up with economic migrants who have come from many so called safe countries like morocco and Tunisia.

Merkel is now working to deport hundreds of thousands of people but many go missing, cant be traced etc etc etc. In some ways I cant blame Trump looking at that chaos and not wanting it - although he is creating chaos

We must vet our refugees very carefully, coming from the actual camps.

I think this is a perfect solution because it means

1. We take the most vulnerable people who cant afford to get to Europe who perhaps have health issues etc

2. They are vetted and therefore the communities they go and live in, feel safer and don't feel they are a threat - which is a win win situation. They can move into a happy community that welcomes them.

Glad I read this thread, I also had no idea about Israel and am quite shocked that I haven't heard of it before now.

As for the ban I'm on the fence about it. I think some people are being really extreme about it calling for Trump to be assasinated, no excuse for that IMO it's just fucking disgusting. I can also understand why some people want the ban (although I think the term ban is a bit dubious, it's more a temporary "ban" if I understand correctly?), I think there are people with legitimate concerns regarding immigration that are not being addressed by TPTB. Everytime they express their concerns they are shut down from any kind of discussion by being called racist (as seen on this thread already), this is not helpful at all. Also the events in Germany are, in my opinion, concerning and it's not something I would like to happen in this country.

That said.... most of the refugees are desperate for our help, they are in a horrible situation that our countries helped create. I wish we would keep our noses out of other countries business because we always seem to make matters worse IMO. So on that basis I feel we should help and are under an obligation to do so. I also don't think the "ban" would get to the actual root of the problem and solve anything.

The whole situation just makes me sad and a little bit scared. (and I do realise how pathetic and probably ignorant it is to state that I am sad and scared given the situation these refugees are fleeing from).

Are you going to welcome them with open arms and say make yourself a cup of tea. Mi casa es su casa?

I would, yes. And I would hope if I ever needed help someone would do the same for me.

No it doesn't, but equally those outraged should also be outraged at countries that ban Israelis.

Im outraged at all these countries! Grrr! What was your point again?

It's very easy to see how so many ordinary people stood by while Jews, trade unionists, etc were being persecuted in Germany.

Are we prepared to let that happen again?

Want to know why many Arab nations don't welcome Israeli passport holders? It's not as simple as "racism". Israel has commuted many atrocities.
www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

It's not the same as banning entry to the US to anyone flying from Muslim nations (in which Trump doesn't have business interests) including refugees.

I'm not actually defending an Israeli passport van but you have to understand that Israel's refusal to abide by treaties or international law makes it a rogue state in the eyes of many countries.

Who here remembers the South Africa boycott during apartheid? There are reasons why Israel attracts boycotts.

Do any of us really know what's actually going on

well of course not.

You do know this affects refugees, and lots of other people. Others in the US are proposing an exemption for scientists and others. Professionals in all countries need to travel for business purposes.

notaflyingmonkey Mon 30-Jan-17 19:11:15

Again Israel is not my strong point but people who live in Israel will be mostly Jewish? So the fact they are already banned from 16 countries means they are still be persecuted?

It's very easy to see how so many ordinary people stood by while Jews, trade unionists, etc were being persecuted in Germany.

Are we prepared to let that happen again?

It isn't just that, either. Some people seem to take actual pride in not giving a toss, it pleases them to ridicule those who are opposed to a racist, woman abusing twat. It's almost as if they get off on not caring.

That's the whole point of being in a free country surely

Yes, and the US is a free country and Trump won.

And Trump is ignoring the Constitution and acting illegally.

Yes, and the US is a free country and Trump won.

Yeah, stand down everyone. That's us told! No protesting allowed.

Cockacidal yes, I'm getting that impression too.

Here's some of the explanation as to why this ban is unjust and unlawful...

That said.... most of the refugees are desperate for our help, they are in a horrible situation that our countries helped create. I wish we would keep our noses out of other countries business because we always seem to make matters worse IMO

What did we do in Syria? There is strong argument this has spiraled out of control there because we did not intervene, Cameron wanted too. I think I agree on keeping out of others business now though.
Everyone in ME seems to hate us - the US.

I agree we should do all we can to help genuine refugees, I believe however they do need to be properly vetted for everyone's sake. We need to do Far Far more to help genuine refugees.

I don't think some of you actually understand what is happening and why this is so scary. The US Government is supposed to have many checks and balances. Trump is acting illegally, has got rid of lots of staff who would be fighting against things he does, has shut senior military and defence out of crucial decision making meetings. No other President has done this. The US is now being ruled by a very small group of people. That is unprecedented.

RhiWrites - many of the countries on Trump's ban list have dubious human rights records; does this justify his actions?

It's almost as if they get off on not caring

Interesting I see it the other way that people need to rail agaisnt Trump because it makes them feel good. Its laid out on a plate. There is no similar angst over Turkey, Saudi, even South Africa is referenced when millions of women are living in subjugation due to cultures and religion, no one marches about them?

The complacent ones have spoken. After all what could possibly go wrong with the leader of the free world being a monster? They're all right, after all; they're not Muslim. There's no problem with him appointing the 'Alt Right' to positions of power. There's no possible historical analogies at all.
In Orwell's words, they're 'sleeping the deep. deep sleep of England.'
And they appear to be fucking proud of it too.

Interesting I see it the other way that people need to rail agaisnt Trump because it makes them feel good. Its laid out on a plate. There is no similar angst over Turkey, Saudi, even South Africa is referenced when millions of women are living in subjugation due to cultures and religion, no one marches about them?

Gosh, you're so right. It's impossible to care about more than one thing at a time, isn't it. Best go back to sleep then, shouldn't you; your whattaboutery will keep you warm.

What did we do in Syria? There is strong argument this has spiraled out of control there because we did not intervene

Russia.

It's a pointless, stupid policy, nasty and racist. And will not make Americans safe. People with the right to be in America were turned back, people with green cards, residency and legitimate visas - not necessarily refugees. Christians from the listed countries were turned away, not just muslims. Apart from the Twin Towers, America is not a hotbed of Islamic terrorism. They do have an enormous number of gun attacks - is Trump talking about getting rid of the white, angry gun owners who shoot up schools,cinemas and shopping malls? Just because Israel have a certain policy does not make it right, and to be fair to Israel, their situation, geography, politics, history etc is totally different to that of the USA. Trump is a divisive man, he ignores all evidence that doesn't stoke his own ego and he will not bring peace or safety anywhere. I hope that he does not get the pomp of a full state visit here.