To think the trump Muslim ban is wrong BUT

[HannahSmithson45]

Many of the same countries ban entry for people from Israel or who have ever been to Israel.

It's not the same. United Nations have made a judgment that Israel is guilty of war crimes l, and the Arab governments accepted that judgment as justification to sanction travel to israelis until the sovereign government of Israel conforms to international law.

The question should really therefore be... why have Western countries also not put these sanctions onto Israel?

The question should also be why the biggest attack on American soil (9/11) had perpetrators namely from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt. Are they on this ban? No. Why? Their citizens have actually carried out an attack!
Where are Trump's business interests?

As for online petitions, they should only be taken seriously if they have a button for "Disagree" and the Agrees outnumber the Disagrees by some stated number such as 100,000. It might not affect this one but there are others which might even have been voted down.

But at the same time - why is it anyone's right to go anywhere?

We are used to rebuffals in our family for various reasons from various countries, its just been part and parcel of life really.

Vicky - are you saying that you don't know that most of the 9/11 murderers were from Saudi? The place where wahabiism comes from, is funded and distributes it's wharped version of Islam? The place not on the list, possibly because Trump has many business deals going on there?

Why is he gunning for these specific countries now? Think of motives. It is not safety of nationals or he would crack down on drugs, tobacco or handguns.

scortja many of these people are green card holders who are on holiday, and they have suddenly found that they can't get home!

Likewise many people who currently live in the States are effectively unavailable to leave as they won't be able to get back home.

Hi derkei - I see I x posted there!

Countries which ban Israeli do not ban them because they do not approve of any political stance that Israeli takes ... They ban them because they do not like Jews and they do not recognise the right of Israel to exist as a state. Some include countries like Iran who have stayed again and again that they would wipe Israel off the map of they could.

Derlei Perhaps because Western countries leave it to their own citizens to decide as individuals whether there are countries they don't want to visit and to act on that choice?

Boycotts should never be imposed collectively by governments or councils or employers.

Number of US citizens killed 1975-2015 by citizens of the countries included in the ban = 0.

Vicky1990 the twin tower atrocities were committed by Saudis. Perhaps you are confused because they are all Muslims?

Am I allowed to shout racism yet? Or am I being a patronising liberal?

Forgive me but isn't this a 3 month ban until they can put into place a proper vetting system? Am I mistaken?

But there is already a proper vetting system. Over the weekend they were turning away people at the border who had green cards (giving them the permanent right to reside in the US), who have lived in the US for a decade or more, who are professors at elite US universities such as Harvard, just because they were born in one of these countries.

Anyone who has ever gotten a visa for the US will tell you that they are extremely thorough already. Refugees in particular face a long, long process of assessment and vetting.

@HannahSmithson45 I'm with you. People are vocally outraged by Trump because it's virtue signalling. They didn't all sign a big petition and be anywhere near as vocal about the President Xi's state visit. Evidently China's human rights policies are more palatable...

Two wrongs don't make a right. The ban against Israelis/their visitors visiting some countries is disgusting racism. As is Trump's latest idiocy.

Who says people are only upset about one and not the other? It is being debated today, because it is new and therefore a hot topic. It doesn't mean that people don't care about other issues just because they aren't shoehorning them into the current conversation.

The pp who whinged about 'lefties' might want to consider why some right wingers (a small minority, one hopes) try to deflect criticism away from racism when it is targeted towards Muslims. All racism is wrong.

I think national borders are there for a reason. That's what makes a country, gives you a sense of pride and achievement. I don't feel what Trump is doing is racist or Islamphobic. He has seen what has happened to Germany, Belgium, France at the top of the list and personally for me, I wouldn't open my front door to any needy person without considering the safety of my family. Yes the US and UK like many countries are built to greatness off the backs of immigrants...however the idea then was the people came over to build the country, not to sponge or cause mischief in it!

Debbie is that a common thing, do you know? Is it because you have an Israeli passport?

Or is the problem with the bans that the list is fairly specific? Or is it stirring shit up? But what would be the endpoint then? Sorry - thinking out loud..

It's monstrous. And aside from the obvious human rights violations, surely a ban like this is only going to radicalise people and increase terrorism?

Andrewofgg if you don't agree with a petition start another one and see how many sign it. That is how you disagree.

So if other countries are racist it makes it ok for America to be as well

No, but you can't pick and choose which one you are going to petition and march against.

If Trump wants to make America safer, why is he banning people from countries who haven't committed terrorism acts in the US and not banning people from Saudi Arabia etc (when Saudis were responsible for 9/11)?

Why would banning a professor from Harvard who has lived in the US for decades make America safer?

Countries which ban Israeli do not ban them because they do not approve of any political stance that Israeli takes ... They ban them because they do not like Jews and they do not recognise the right of Israel to exist as a state. Some include countries like Iran who have stayed again and again that they would wipe Israel off the map of they could.

Thank you

icy they might also have had to worry about getting the dinner on or something like that.

Life is busy and exhausting at times, I try to be an involved world citizen but I'm also busy working a full time job, wiping bums and making school lunches. Not to mention Mumsnetting.

Vicky shows one of the major problems. A lot of people can't be bothered to do five minutes of research into something before speaking about it

You know who kills the most Americans every year in the US? People born in the US. Try to ask for gun control to help reduce the chances of mass shootings and see how keen President Trump is to protect the safety of Americans

Call me a bit old fashioned as this whole democracy notion seems to be getting a bit passe, but isn't that up to Americans to decide, really?

I think national borders are there for a reason. That's what makes a country, gives you a sense of pride and achievement

If turning away refugees fleeing ISIS gives you a sense of pride and achievement, you need to have a good long word with yourself.

No, but you can't pick and choose which one you are going to petition and march against.

But of course you can! That's the whole point of being in a free country surely

Yes I've just checked this out of curiosity,as I didn't know anything about Israeli's being barred from certain countries. Apparently, there are 16 countries that do this,among them Yemen,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Saudi Arabia,UAE and Kuwait. To say I was astounded at this is an understatement. Certainly kept it quiet I must say.