To feel uncomortable with this - Mil having bath with DD 4

[BornFreeButinChains]

I cant think why any grown woman would want to get into the bath with a 4 year old

It doesn't matter that its MIl - if my own DM had done this I would be asking her - why.

I think there is a difference between being in the bath and DC coming along wondering what your doing etc. But as a granny if I needed to wash with young dc there its more likely I would forgo my wash until later or have a quick shower.

Maybe I am mad maybe its very common? They feed DC off their own forks in spite of being OTT about dirt and cleanliness - its like a religion for mil - but very happy to feed dc off fork shortly after illness..very smooshy with them kissing on lips - FIl is very very physical with them - lying down on grass in summer with DD on top of him after playing .

FOR THE RECORD if I felt anything else was going on of course I would stop them going but my family are just not this physical...DF would give bear hug at greeting and thats it. I really struggle with it - but keep telling myself its OK they are loving GP - but having a bath with DD?

why> why on earth would you want or need to do that?

What is wrong with a child sitting on their grandparents lap, yes it's on top of their genitals, but they are clothed not exposed! When my son 5 sits in my lap, it's in effect on top of my clothed genitals, is that a problem! Does it make a difference because I am a woman!Some sad ideas about here!

If your uncomfortable about grandma having a bath, then tell her not to do it. How does your daughter feel about it. If he is uncomfortable about it, has to stop!

'Because it's not necessary for gm to be in the bath' is not a reason why it is weird. Lots of things are unnecessary but not weird. 'Because the mum does not want it' is not a reason it's weird or creepy (could be a reason to stop if you think this outweighs child's view on the matter). I haven't really understood why people think it's creepy or unnatural. I suppose there is a continuum of views on nakedness and some people think it is wrong to see others naked. And then at the other end is naturists. I wouldn't be the first to jump in the village sauna but prob would if that's how I grew up. But that would be because I would feel shy, and possibly a bit ashamed of my naked body because it's less than perfect - a thought which I hope would never enter my dds' heads because they grown up to feel comfortable with their own bodies and understanding of different bodies including ageing bodies (there does seem to be a bit of ageism on here about ageing bodies being gross).
I'd like to know dh's views.

Surely child's view should be given more weight. Why force your views on an innocent little girl when no one has been able to articulate what possible harm this fun that she shares with her grandparents could do?

Aeroflotgirl the OP did not say sitting on his lap. She said lying down with her on top of him. If I am remembering rightly she said that this happens all the time when they are playing. It clearly makes the OP feel uncomfortable but she either does not know why she feels uncomfortable or she knows and doesn't feel able to express it.

Prendrive was that to me?

I said because it was not necessary there needed to be a good reason for it. I can see no good reason for it (other than grandma likes of, since she is making it happen; child may or may not like it but has almost certainly no autonomy in the matter).

So if something is being done which is unnecessary, and which involves an adult being naked with a child for a prolonged time (e.g. not just getting changed) I think that is creepy.

No somebody else said that,can't remember who it was.

It was Italian greyhound who said something like that!

We as parents should be helping our children form their views on what is safe.

A few decades ago MANY things were considered safe and harmless which we now know to be the exact opposite.

The naturalist people who want to let it all hang out are fine as adults but clothes give children a very thin layers of protection and of privacy and we teach them to disgaurd it at our, and their, peril.

Being naked around people does not mean you have a good body image or a bad one. Children need to know they can deny people the chance to look at or touch their bodies.

By putting them in positions where these barriers are removed because we feel comfortable we are really confusing their natural ability to be private.

The desire not to see harm or embarrassment could so easily potentially put children, and later young people, especially young women in harms way.

We should be teaching then early about body autonomy and their right to privacy; not other people's right to do as they please around them.

Aeroflot "It was Italian greyhound who said something like that"

said something like what?

On the bathing YANBU op.

I wouldn't have a problem with a quick shower after swimming together, or on a campsite or anywhere where it's situational to be together in that way, and where kids need to be supervised around unfamiliar slippery surfaces, hot showers, public places etc

But I really wouldn't feel comfortable about taking a bath together.

A few people said it was creepy because not necessary. I agree that if it's not necessary it's more important that benefits outweigh harm. But I think they do in this case because it's fun (I know I'm projecting here, prob because my children think it's great when I get in the bath with them, but nothing suggests dd doesn't have fun with her gran in the bath) and I can't see any harm. So benefit outweighs harm from my POV.

Yes of course it's important to teach children how to respect their bodies and their privacy. And I've said loads of times that all the adults concerned must be conscious of whether child is still happy in the bath. But teaching about privacy and rights to have no one invade that privacy can go on at the same time as bath time with gran. Understanding your rights is not the same thing as not being allowed to be naked with close family members.

"but nothing suggests dd doesn't have fun with her gran in the bath", this is so clearly not about the child's enjoyment of being in the bath with Gran.

It is about gran's enjoyment and the OPs inability to make her wishes known and follow through.

This is, once again, adult needs being placed above children's needs. If gran supervised a bath fully clothed from the side of the bath, played games, made funny jokrs noises or told jokes and made comments from the side of the bath I think the child would enjoy the bath 'experience' just as much. Probably more, as child will have all the space and water.

But granny would not enjoy it as much. Maybe granny is having some little fantasy that this is her child.

So on reflection, what you do with your kids is up to you, what granny does with the child should still be in the control of mum if mum has concerns, which she does.

And it doesn't matter if it it is the parents' mother or MIL, to userp your daughter or DIL's role by blurring the boundaries, ignoring child's mothers wishes or doing things reserved for parent is not helpful at all.

How can a child develop their own boundaries of required to bath or be naked with adults? At what age does that stop?

I don't even think that it's that difficult to tell granny not to bath her. You're the mother, if you're not happy about it, it stops. You can either say something like "She won't be needing a bath today thanks. She had a bath last night, and we're finding that her skin dries out if she baths every day." Or you could just say "I'd rather she didn't have a bath here thanks, I'd prefer to do that myself at home."

Granny should respect your wishes, and if she doesn't, then she can't really be trusted. I often babysit my 1yo niece, and it's never crossed my mind to get in the bath with her. She's never even needed a bath here. I don't feed her anything that my sil hasn't provided for her, and I listen to her wishes. I respect that she's the mother, and what she thinks is best for her dd goes.

Well I think at about 5 it's time to encourage a bit more thinking about 'keeping your privates private' so 4 probably upper end of just complete innocence iyswim.
But how do you know dd doesnt ask her gran to bath with her? You're making an assumption that it is gran's wish not child's. and maybe you're putting adult's (mum) rights before the child's right to have a bath with her gran if she wants.
I still think you can teach a child about bodily autonomy while at the same time agreeing to her having a bath with her gran IF THAT IS WHAT CHILD WANTS. And we don't know that child doesn't want to.

And you don't know that gran would not prefer to stay on the side of the bath, but her little gd insists she gets in.

But how do you know dd doesnt ask her gran to bath with her? You're making an assumption that it is gran's wish not child's. and maybe you're putting adult's (mum) rights before the child's right to have a bath with her gran if she wants

Good Point.

DD mentioned in course of conversation that she had a bath with Gran. I asked her if she had a bath because I could smell her clothes had been washed...so was wondering what she was wearing or doing ...DD is a very young 4 and she just said " i had a bath with grandma"

I would think it highly unusual for her to ask her granny to get in, because she has never ever done that with us - ie its not part of of her vocab. Occasionally if her older Dsis isn't getting in with her she will mention it but otherwise is very happy on her own. If she sees DH in bath she will want to get in. So gran may have been having a bath...and DD asked to get in.

But whilst looking after DD I would have expected gran to have quick shower....

I am not going to say anything, they dont listen anyway. DD will be starting school soon so visits will be less.

italian some really good points there and on the boundary side I tend to agree.

Italian I agree with you about the bath, not ok if granny wants it, but if the girl keeps asking her it's fine. But there will come a time when she is older, when it's not fine.Even if the child wants it, it is inappropriate!

What I disagree is the clothed lap sitting, that is making something sinister out of something innocent. If the child wants to sit on grandad lap, what's wrong with that! I often sat on my dad lap when he read me a story, he died when I was 11, I had fond memories of that.

I can understand feeling weird about the bath ( some people only will share with their kids) but the way you talk about ypur fil is just weird
All the things you describe is normal little play ( or certainly normal for everyone i knew growing up and now). He sounds like a loving gp taking an active part in his gc lives.
The mil ( though definitely somewhat overbearing!) also sounds like a loving gp. The mil is the one you should be having words with regarding the bath.

Aeroflotgirl agree! Op says there is nothing sinister but it certainly comes across that way.
Sounds like a loving gp.
about your father. Same here.

I agree kali, my dad used to swing me round the garden with my hands when I was little, I loved it, and its part of the fond memories, the only memories I have of dad, now if I were to say that my kids dad was doing this, cries of call social services would happen.

Yes what Bornfree described FIL doing sounds completely normal, like rough and tumble, and she said its nothing sinister. Shame that innocent play is twisted to become sinister. Sad times!

How can a child develop their own boundaries of required to bath or be naked with adults? At what age does that stop?

Quite easily, you just make distinctions between ok nudity - bathing and not ok nudity.

In the country I live in we don't have baths so people bathe in the sauna on a regular basis. It is simply not safe for a small child to be in the sauna without an adult so until at least the age of 8 they need an adult with them. There is also the cultural norm of public saunas/multi-generational family sauna (single sex - mixed sex sometimes with friends). Children learn quite naturally that its ok to be naked in the sauna with your family or friends but its not ok for someone to ask you get naked somewhere else, or for someone to touch you.

Proper behaviour is modelled in the sauna (no staring, no touching, no inappropriateness) and so the children learn to recognise what is inappropriate and so know that its wrong and they need to tell someone.

Natsku I think if it was the norm here If I was in your country asking if DC go into sauna etc - its the norm so not seen odd - but it seems more unusual than usual here.

I dont think its a regular thing, dd has never mentioned it before....I am taking this one as a one off...perhaps situation occurred like mentioned above so she got in.

I think the Japanese also go in for familiy bathing.

I think it also happens in cultures where having a same sex hammam is the norm.