Furious: Girl Guides now admitting boys

[shinynewusername]

Sorry for DM link but this is important. Brownies and Guides are going to admit boys if they identify as girls. Girls will have to share 'single sex' facilities including tents & changing rooms with them. Parents won't be told. Oh, and men who identify as women can become Brownie & Guide leaders, where they will get to supervise girls in those tents, changing rooms etc.

How is this possible? There is an epidemic of sexual abuse. We are still in the fall-out of Rotherham, Saville etc yet we are enabling men to have access to every safe space for girls. AIBU?

Thank you minisok
You have expressed what GG, Scouting and the other similar organisations are about, Having fun and learning in a safe environment.
There is no such thing as 'boy' activities or 'girl' activities. There are activities that some PEOPLE like doing and others don't. My DW makes concrete and I have done sewing. We both prefer doing the opposite activity.
Yes there are MASSSIVE problems with treatment of girls/women but for the formative years, up to say 15 or thereabouts we adults are able to steer them all to a new generation of acceptance of difference where there can be respect for all. Segregation is not the way to do it, they must grow up together so they understand what the differences are (in reality there should be relatively few) as all people are capable of doing anything.
I am not saying that boys and girls HAVE to do everything the same all the time, but the skills and experiences in Scouts are useful to all.
In my view the GG are doing girls a disservice which is a shame, although carrying the argument in this thread to general 'male hating' should be a different topic.

I'm hoping there are enough disgruntled mums in the local area to form our own group where girls can actually have a space.

There have been multiple instances of these outrage threads lately.

Cannot help but winder if this is the Messy Fail trying to drum up outrage. Yawn.

Segregation is not the way to do it, they must grow up together so they understand what the differences are (in reality there should be relatively few) as all people are capable of doing anything.

So girls and women are not allowed any BOUNDARIES at all? You are aware of the levels of teenage sexual assault by boys on girls under the age of 15? You are aware of the levels of sexual bullying using porn over social media by boys to girls? You are aware of the recent levels of sexual harrassment by boys of girls in their teenage years?

You have read the DSM 5 criteria of gender dysphoria? Please tell me how these are NOT sex stereotypes.

This is not just about sex segregation it's about the government's plans to throw out 'sex' as a protected legal characteristic and replace it with 'gender identity' which will effectively DELETE all women's legal sex discrimination protections and OUTLAW women from having any space ANYWHERE - schools, sports, intimate care, prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms, loos, business, ANYWHERE - where we are allowed to gather, and organise in and of our own right.

You are aware that this change will DELETE any connection between 'woman' and 'biology' also?

I mean how do we even measure health outcomes of uterine cancer if we can't even accurately measure how many people get it if a man who has an 'inner sense' of being a woman is counted as a woman? How do we measure drug and treatment effectiveness if some women quite literally have pensies? How do we make funding decisions about drugs and research if all those stats are skewed because a woman is someone who 'feels' like one?

Please don't patronise us, without actually understanding what you are talking about. The Guides are a SINGLE SEX organisation, if they no longer want to be a SINGLE SEX organisation that is one debate, that they have already erased 'female' and are now saying 'female is whatever you want it to mean' is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT debate.

And yeah of course, boys and girls are totally segregated in real life, in homes, in other clubs, at school, etc, stupid, selfish girls wanting some tiny bit of space away from all of that in this male dominated world. I mean, for God's sake, what will they want next, the vote?

Outabout seems to think our objections to the erosion of sex in favour of gender in GG policy is a personal attack on Scouts and other mixed groups.

It isn't and many of us have repeatedly said, we have sons and husbands. We love Scouts and all the opportunities it affords to our young people. We're not having a go at Scouts.

But surely you can understand the frustration that we feel when GG tells us being a girl is just a feeling, nothing more, whilst totally ignoring the fact that it isn't 'feelings' that mean women continue to be disadvantaged in many different ways, it's biology.

I just want to cry.
Girlscout can I join you in the march?

And one final thing, seeing as the CEO of the GG's has described it as 'the ultimate feminist organisation' I do think feminists are entitled to therefore have something to say about what they're doing.

Given that feminism is a bonafide political and social movement underpinned by a proper ideology and aims and stuff and is not just a bunch of women having a gas on Mumnet.

And BTW, NO FEMINIST of any stripe believes that 'gender' is real, not one branch of feminism believes that, so the fact that the 'ultimate feminist organisation' has decided I'm not a woman but I have a 'gender identity' then I think it's right and proper we have a view.

Unless of course you are one of those people harrassing black activists that they are excluding white people, maybe you have an #alllivesmatter bumper sticker, and tell black people how they ought to do their activism too?

Bettersleepoutdoors - of course! More the merrier! x

Gallavich I mean that people some people don't always feel like the gender they are born. My friend was born male but always "felt" female and felt that she was born in the wrong body. I mean that this is a VERY sensitive issue and until a person knows what this feels like we need to handle his sensitively. Gender stereotypes aside, my girls at Guides don't stay in and learn to crochet, we rock climb, camp light fires play outdoor games as well as crafts and quieter activities so no gender stereotypical activities. We want to contribute to the well-being of the next generation of young women to become confident and well rounded individuals. It's difficult as as it is really positive to promote single sex activities for many reasons but think of the position of a parent who child is transgendered. It's very difficult and should be met with understanding and compass.

Gallavich I mean that people some people don't always feel like the gender they are born

But nobody is born a gender. We are born a sex.
Some people don't identify with the social expectations of their sex. That doesn't mean they are actually the opposite sex in their brain.
Female is a physical, biological state. It's not a feeling. Males can't feel female.
People who aren't happy with either their bodies or the social expectations of people of their sex are not the opposite sex inside.

I am not saying that boys and girls HAVE to do everything the same all the time,

You may not be saying it, but that is what is happening. You're not being asked.

Today 11:32 ChuffChu

I'm hoping there are enough disgruntled mums in the local area to form our own group where girls can actually have a space.

In reality, you may very well be able to do this short term. But only up to the time when, or if, a trans-girl wants to join. Unless, of course, you decide to use your own house. Gathering together a meeting of girls privately will still be legal.

My friend was born male but always "felt" female and felt that she was born in the wrong body.

What does that MEAN? That evolution got it wrong and there all these people trapped in the wrong bodies????? What is this woman FEELING?

I AM a woman and I don't have a woman FEELING. I feel like a person with female biology.

And I've known several chronic anorexics. They honestly and truly believe they are fat. They look in the mirror and see fat. Their belief is unshakeable to the point where they've literally nearly starved themselves to death and needed hospitalisation. They 'identify' as FAT.

Are they fat? Are you saying we should affirm their fat identity and give them a gastric band? Are you saying 'fat' is a 'feeling'? That we all need to go on a diet? That anorexics need a hokey civil rights movement and anyone who says 'but you aren't fat, you are dangerously thin' is a bigot and an anorexicphobe?

Of COURSE anorexics need to be treated sensitively, they need help and effective treatment, they should not be shunned, they need to be understood (I'd actually say that the fact that anorexia is by far and away suffered by girls lends itself to a feminist analysis connected to permission to 'take up some room' in this world, about 'not wanting to grow up to be a woman' - many anorexics have no periods, and girls feeling out of control of their bodies in this pornified world, and wanting to exert some control).

I do not believe however that it is helpful to anorexics to collude with their MENTAL ILLNESS that they are indeed FAT.

Similarly, I believe it is CHILD ABUSE to lie to children and tell them they can change SEX, they cannot.

What we need to do is get rid of gender stereotypes. I say again look at the criteria for gender dysphoria in kids, it'd make you cry, it's ONE BIG LIST OF GENDER STEREOTYPES.

I'd also point out that 75% of trans women don't transition and almost 90% DON'T HAVE DYSPHORIA. I seriously suggest you look up Ray Blanchard's work on autogynephilia. This is a sexual fetish whereby MEN have so sexualised their misogyny they want to become the thing they loathe, a woman. It sexually excites them to do so. I'd also suggest you go and read some 'transition' threads online, it's turn your stomach.

This 'FEELING' these men have about what being a woman means is utterly repulsive, and children are the human shield of their movement. This obfuscates the important work actually being done to help dysphoric children.

I'd also encourage you to look up the connection between sexual trauma in children and wanting to transition. WHY are four times as many girls as boys deciding the don't want to be women????

Surely the 'ultimate feminist organisation' is not suggesting there is not a genuine debate to be had about that?

GirlScout72

You do of course realise that what you described is basically two forms of the same thing?

Its call dysmorphia.

One person looks in the mirror, sees male, when theuy should see female.
One person looks in the mirror, sees fat, when they should see thin.

Scruffy

Yes, and many dysmophics have been known to assault their plastic surgeon post surgery as the surgery didn't 'fix' it, and the surgeon refused to 'fix' it again, and again. The problem of course not being their nose, or their bum or whatever, but the THOUGHT in their head.

Also, I find it astonishing that nobody talks about the suicide rate going UP AFTER transition for the same reason.

Quite why the GGs have not read some detransition stories from Girls who thought they were boys, and then realised their mistake is beyond me, those girls have butchered their bodies, lost their wombs and breasts and even those they've stopped taking testosterone, still have beards and deep voices and massively overgrown clitorises and always will.

It's CHILD ABUSE. It's wrong. It has no business being part of a girls' organisation.

Also the suicide stats flying around in these trans orgs advising groups like the Guides are flakey, there is no greater level of self harm in girls and boys who identify as dysphoric or trans, no greater level of suicide in trans kids vs ALL KIDS. The rates are exactly the same!

We should be asking WHY we have a mental health crisis in ALL our kids, not terrifying parents that 'better a trans kid than a dead kid' - it's NOT TRUE.

Suicide is the biggest killer of ALL MEN under 45 in the UK, which would suggest it's 'masculinity' that is the problem. Men feel talking about their problems is 'weak' (aka 'feminine') and women are socially sanctioned to 'let it all out' - THESE ARE GENDER STEREOTYPES.

Instead of telling touchy feely men who can emote, who are sensitive, who are 'feminine' they are women, we need to widen the bandwith of what male means. It's no big deal.

Anyway, real life beckons but my final point.

This is really is not a settled matter even within the trans community, many many trans people don't agree with Gender Self ID and many what we'd call in 'old money' transsexuals are horrified by this push to say transwomen are LITERALLY women and they believe that saying that is actually transphobia. They believe transwomen are male, feminine and TRANS. They believe this is no big deal.

They are AGAINST the transing of children, and disagree with the main push of the trans lobby going on. They are villified even worse than women who speak up on this issue.

Here are 3 examples.

Written by a transwoman
genderapostates.com/transgender-ideology-needs-to-change-to-support-women/

Written by a transwoman transavant.tumblr.com/post/132016557177/trans-women-are-women-is-a-lie-that-is-as

Written by a transwoman smashinggenderchange.wordpress.com/2016/12/03/what-the-trans-community-needs-to-do-to-support-womens-rights/

Written by parents and doctors and specialists opposed to 'in the wrong body' dogma
www.transgendertrend.com/born-in-the-wrong-body/

Peace

GirlScout
x

As a person with female biology that has never 'identified' as anything that wasn't a direct result of my desire to belong to something, I despair that this is happening at a time when women were seeing progress.

How can anyone here stand aside and allow female people to yet again be the ones to lose the tiny amount of equality we'd fought for after thousands of years of being downtrodden? Women died for us just to hand it over because we're transphobic if we don't? Over my dead body.

Just THINK ABOUT IT. FGS we could be legally raped only 30 years ago and now people are crying about boys not being able to join the bloody Guides when there are plenty of other places they've always had that girls couldn't be until about 5 minutes ago?!

Thank you to all the women here who've opened my eyes to this and been so articulate when I'm not able to be. I'm educating myself and I am bloody well Spartacus!

Just THINK ABOUT IT. FGS we could be legally raped only 30 years ago

Um, what?

IHave it only became illegal for a man to rape his wife in 1991. Perhaps you should go back to worrying about domestic violence against men and femal peadophilia. HTH.

it only became illegal for a man to rape his wife in 1991.

In the UK? You sure about that?

I was born in 1989. I can't picture it being legal to rape anyone in my lifetime.

Female pedophilia is not really something I'm worried about tbh.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_R

Never mind, apparently it wasn't legal until then.

That's f/cked up.

ihave

And it took 15 years of hard campaigning by women before that law was changed.