Furious: Girl Guides now admitting boys

[shinynewusername]

Sorry for DM link but this is important. Brownies and Guides are going to admit boys if they identify as girls. Girls will have to share 'single sex' facilities including tents & changing rooms with them. Parents won't be told. Oh, and men who identify as women can become Brownie & Guide leaders, where they will get to supervise girls in those tents, changing rooms etc.

How is this possible? There is an epidemic of sexual abuse. We are still in the fall-out of Rotherham, Saville etc yet we are enabling men to have access to every safe space for girls. AIBU?

Ouriana

I am more confused than ever. The guides are expelling anyone who exhibits behavior that is not girle enough?

Datun

Agreed. Never been much good at doing what men tell me to because "I said so" and have no intention of allowing little girls believe that they should either.

It's abusive. How confusing to call men (we all know they're men, we're either too polite, too intimidated or too embarrassed to say) 'miss' and 'she' and 'her'. I don't care if men and boys call themselves Shirley and go to town with the Littlewoods catalogue, vive la difference, but come on, it's a dude in a frock. So what?

Teaching girls 'to be NICE' is a bloody useless strategy for living. You CANNOT "nice' your way through life. You'll always be a doormat. Always disappointed. Always back of the queue.

So either we're a bunch of man appeasing wimps and cowards or we stand up. We're either participating in a mass outbreak of dependent personality disorder a la The Life Of Brian ("He's the Messiah!!") or we say SOD THIS, that's NOT reality.

So which is it?

It might all be well intentioned but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

This woman says they can sod off and carve out their own spaces. We fought for ours. For heaven's sake Russia just repealed domestic violence law as 'unnatural'. We're under attack. We need to wake up.

And supermimmy yes I've seen the email, girls who don't say they have a gender identity are free to leave. If you look at the criteria for gender dysphoria you'll see they are a buch of sexist stereotypes. No mother in their right mind would teach their daughter that bunch of drivel was 'innate' or 'natural'.

And yes by diagnostic criteria tomboys are boys. The Guides subscribe to this view.

For me, the Transgender issue is at odds with their 'girls matter' campaigns.

How can GG say they support a safe space for girls and young women to talk about issues which are unique to them when they are going to allow a male join simply because they identify as a girl. Even if they were to go through gender reassignment surgery, a trans woman would never, ever understand what it feels like when you have your first period, the emotional as well as physical changes of the maturing female body... being told you aren't as strong as a boy, to 'man up', being teased because you have or haven't sprouted breasts yet...

In a way I want boys to learn alongside girls all about puberty and the fight women have had to be recognised as people in their own right and not just possessions to be put in their place by men. But I also so desperately want my daughters to grown up and realise that they can be who they want to be and not be pigeon holed by the patriarchy just because tradition leads the way in what has always been done.

I can't word the feelings I have very well on this issue. I don't give two hoots if a man wants to identify as a bloody zebra with leopard's spots. But it doesn't matter what they do, how many operations they have, genetically they will always have XY chromosomes so genetically there are many things they will never be able to do to truly be female. And the same for female to male transgender.

• Avoid gender stereotyping (e.g. boys like football, girls like the colour pink).

• When addressing the whole Section/Unit, gender neutral terms will help to support an open and inclusive environment. For example, use "hello everybody" instead of "hello gentlemen" or talking to a group of female Scouts as "ladies".
• Don’t split young people by gender in any activities.
• Allow young people to express their identity freely and don’t make assumptions.

From Scouts.

My dd hates mixed PE as boys are dicks and frequently tell girls they're shit.

Transgendered youngsters are just that, transgendered which means that their outlook identity with the body in which they where born

You want to try again with that?

Suppermummy02

The way it appears from the girl guide guidelines is that they are admitting people based on their gender identity not their biological sex (hence letting people in whose sex is male).

If a girl identifies as a boy, according to the guidelines her gender identity is male. And as admittance is now based on female gender identity, she will be excluded.

That's why deciding that gender is the criteria is every bit as excluding. But it's girls who will be missing out, not boys!

I suspect the parents of a girl identifying as a boy would be furious with this and the girl guides will soon be forced to allow boys and girls of any gender to avoid sex discrimination.

It appears that many people are fine with this. Unfortunately, for those who aren't fine, who would like a girl only environment they have no choice.

The suggestion that people go away and set up their own girl group is silly. Because the rules will apply to that group too. And the next one, and the next one.

This isn't about people deciding if it's okay or not okay, they're not being asked. This isn't about people deciding to take it on a case by case basis - basing it on what an individual is like is not part of the criteria. This is about laws going through Parliament, right now, that leaves people with no choice.

I'm just amazed that the girl guides had not thought this through. There are very many more girls identifying as boys, than the other way around.

It may well be that given the huge surge in sexual harassment of girls at school, they find protection in a 'male identity'. I'm wondering if presenting as male reduces that harassment. Would boys be less likely to pester a girl who presents as a boy? Knowing what young people and teenagers are like, could they be teased about being gay if they harass a male presenting girl?

Girl guides would have offered these girls an opportunity to congregate away from the male gaze. But now that is being withdrawn.

I don't know if there are any female transactivists, I am not aware of any. It is not women who are driving this agenda.

I am all for people identifying how they wish as long as they aren't harming anyone. Live and let live and all that.

I used to think that it wasn't hurting anyone to accept transwomen as women. Reading the arguments on here made me change my mind.

Gender is basically a bunch of stereotypes about what is is to be a man/woman. What is 'living as a woman'? What does it to feel like a woman? It is a whole load of stereotypes about how women should look and behave basically.

We should be trying to get rid of those stereotypes not entrench them. These stereotypes DO hurt women. Being a woman is biology, that's all. It doesn't mean I am innately bad at science or sport or driving.

That's not to say there are no differences between the sexes. That biology affects how women are treated, for the worse.

Why can't the bandwith of what it means to be a man be broader? Why can't men have long hair, wear skirts and make up, like baking and craft and shopping (insert other female steroetypes here), even have breast enhancements and still be accepted as men?

And supermimmy yes I've seen the email, girls who don't say they have a gender identity are free to leave.

So where is this email then?

Piglet

Possibly this: www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_leaders.pdf

What should I do if a young member tells me they do not identify as a girl?
Be aware that the young member may not have told many people or anyone at all, and that it is a
sign that they trust you as a Leader. Reassure them that their gender identity is not a problem and
that guiding will continue to support them throughout this time of exploration and, potentially, of
change. Make sure they know that they can tell you if anyone is not supportive. The young member
may prefer a different pronoun such as ‘he’ or ‘they’; this can be respected if and when the young
member wishes while they remain part of the organisation. This conversation should be treated in
confidence and you should:

offer reassurance

tell the young member that their confidentiality will be respected

listen and be supportive

ask the young member what their preferred pronoun might be and then use it

ask the young member how they would like to be supported or if there is any information they

want or need

let them know that they can come and talk to you again, or recommend someone else whom they

can speak to
# at the right time, you may wish to begin to work with the young member to find another
organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders.

Bold fail but that last bit:

you may wish to begin to work with the young member to find another
organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders

I found this bit interesting: Treat all people according to how they define their gender

Rather than as just young people?

you may wish to begin to work with the young member to find another
organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders.

Bit sad that....

Its the bloody gender/sex thing as far as i am concerned

Guides must have changed their policy documentation at some point to 'change' the wording to gender

Oops bold fail

Stupid paragraphs

Email is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2832114-This-puts-me-off-Girl-Guides

"Thanks for your email, and taking the time to read our updated equality and diversity policy. If an adult self-identifies as a woman then they are able to undertake all adult roles in guiding including becoming a Leader. This means that they may also, if they wish, make their Promise.

With regards to sleeping arrangements at residential events, it is important to work with the trans individual when organising accommodation rather than making assumptions or arrangements without consulting them. Some people may not feel comfortable sharing accommodation so in this case an alternative option should be provided. As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity), there is no requirement to provide any documentation to evidence their transition. Please also be advised that it is not best practice to tell parents that a trans person will be attending a residential event.

You may find our Let’s Talk about Gender and Gender Identity resources helpful to support any conversations around this topic, should the need arise. At the back of each document, there are also some links to recommended external sources which will also provide some helpful advice on this.

I hope this is of help, but if you have any further queries, please don’t hesitate to get in touch."

The mother responded to the above email and got this further reply:

"Thank you for your email.
Girlguiding has always been a single gender organisation and is committed to ensuring that girls and young women are given a space to challenge gender stereotypes.
When we use the term ‘gender identity’ in guiding we are referring to a person’s inner sense of being a girl or a woman. We consider this to be separate to the biological definition of sex – being male or female.
We cannot disclose to you if there is a trans child in your daughter’s Rainbow unit and we will not be able to disclose this to you in the future.
This is a requirement that safeguards the trans person who is very vulnerable, and open to discrimination and abuse.
If you are uncomfortable about your daughter potentially sharing accommodation with a trans child, you can discuss this with their Leader who will be supported by us to manage this discretely and sensitively.
However, in accordance with our policy, they will not be able to tell you if there is a trans child in the unit without the permission of that child and their parents.
At Girlguiding we take safeguarding very seriously. All of our adult volunteers, of any gender, are DBS checked and our volunteers attend safeguarding training. Any safeguarding concerns would be managed through our safeguarding policies and processes available here:
www.girlguiding.org.uk/…/safety-and-safeguarding-p…/
Girlguiding is an inclusive organisation and is committed to being open and providing equality of opportunity for all girls and young women.
We do not make decisions based on presumptions of what people from different cultures may or may not think about any aspect of guiding, the principles it upholds or its policies.
Decisions are based on giving any girl who wishes to attend guiding the option to be part of our wonderful charity. We are open to all girls from all backgrounds and always have been. If this means that some people are not interested in joining Girlguiding, that is their choice.
Excluding groups of girls gives no one any choice and is not what Girlguiding stands for. We are for all girls, from all walks of life and we will continue to open our doors to anyone based on that principle.
I hope that this answers you query
Best wishes"

So if your daughter doesn't have 'an inner sense' of being a girl (what the hell does that mean???? I'm being serious? I don't have an inner sense, I just feel like a PERSON) then they are free to not join.

They also seem to be very confused about sex and gender - if they are saying gender identity isn't biological, where does the 'inner sense' come from? Do ALL WOMEN have an 'inner sense'?????? I don't - gosh maybe I'm a man????

As previously stated, I think wherever you see the words 'gender identity' it should be replaced with 'personality' and then this madness would end.

Gosh, I was a Guide for six years with no inner sense of being a girl.

What a shame it's all gone down the pan.

Indeed, that last part about finding another organization is the saddest part.
Scouting supports all the other ideals listed a few posts above and does not exclude anyone unless they are deemed to be a risk to the other young people. Abusive behaviour to anyone or 'sexual' activities of any sort is dealt with swiftly.
The young people can say if they think the (mixed troup) is doing too many (stereotypically, but incorrect) 'boy' things and vice versa.
At a Scout camp in summertime during 'relaxation' time you are likely to find half the troop up trees or preparing massive heaps of firewood for campfires and the other half on their phones, practicing makeup or making daisy chains or whatever but the divide will not be based on their sex. They are simply young people having fun together which IS the whole point.

Blimey. I was a brownie and a girl guide with a very regular sense of not wanting to do stereotyped girl activities. The fun of GG was I got to camp, build fires, fish and explore just as Boy Scouts were able to.

I'm pretty sure at several points during childhood, had anyone asked, I wanted to be a boy. I loved stereotypical boys activities and was closest to my father.

I what scares me is if I were growing up now, I'm pretty sure someone would encourage my male-ness and I would end off running down a road from which I couldn't return.

As it happens, I'm happily married with 4 children. I'm just as happy whipping out the sewing machine as I am knocking up a set of shelves with the power tools.

Exactly. I mean, I thought this article I read the other day was a good debunking of this 'inner sense' fairplayforwomen.com/owns-woman-feels-like-wrong-body

Also, I'm heterosexual. Het men are attracted to me. What are they attracted to? My 'inner sense' of being a woman, or my actual physical body? Are they attracted to my 'gender identity' or my 'personality'?

When Boko Haram raid a village and kidnap sex slaves (I read yesterday 3/4 of those girls are pregnant from forcible rape) did they kidnap them on the basis of their 'inner sense' of being a girl? Did they kidnap physical males who 'have an inner sense deep down inside that they are a girl'????

Lesbians are same sex attracted. Are they attracted to a woman's 'inner sense'? Are we saying that Lesbians are or SHOULD be attracted to male bodied people with 'an inner sense' of being a woman? That a transwoman with a penis (which 75% are I believe) who is attracted to women is a lesbian also? That'd be homophobic right? Saying sexual orientation was also 'an inner sense'? Sexual orientation is grounded in material reality of biology surely?

What about women's international sports? Do women get to compete on a level playing field with women due to an 'inner sense' of being a woman? How's that going to work? Are we saying muscle mass, lung capacity, bone structure are trumped by this 'inner sense'?

What about rape shelters? Under English law rape is defined as being enacted by an erect male penis. Are we saying rape shelters should allow in women with this 'inner sense' deep down inside, even if they have a penis? How's that going to play out for traumatized rape victims seeking a safe space from male bodies in which to recover? Is this 'inner sense' more important than female biology?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

As membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity (the way a person self-identifies their gender identity)

They are talking about a female gender identity, not male. They are trying to be inclusive by allowing biological males who identify as girls. Whilst completely forgetting about girls' gender identity (ironic, but unsurprising, to me at least).

The girl who identifies as a boy will have a male gender identity. Based on the criteria they are using, this girl will not be allowed. Unless they suddenly decide to switch their criteria to be one based on biological sex to allow her to join. Then suddenly switch their criteria back again, to that of gender identity, to allow a boy to join.

This policy is going to spectacularly unravel as soon as people see the contradiction. The next press release will be to say they are now open to all boys and all girls, irrespective of gender identity.

They have shot themselves in the foot. They cannot revert back to the original criteria of biological sex, the transactivists will have a field day.

So in order to include a barely perceptible number of males and to desperately try not to exclude girls in the process, the entire original premise of guiding being for girls and about girls will be over.

Say what you like about trans-activism, but you can't deny it is powerful.

But do girls actually HAVE a gender identity? I definitely DON'T have a gender identity, I just feel like a person and I know that I AM biologically female.

So if a little girl says, my mummy is a feminist and 'I don't believe I have a gender identity, I just have a female body and a personality, I think gender is all made up and not real' I'm assuming they are NOT welcome in the Guides?

If Gender Identity is an 'inner sense' where does that leave all us women who have no idea what this 'inner sense' is? I really don't have an 'inner sense' - I just feel like 'me'.

I could cry reading this....

particularly the references at the end.....

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/programme-and-activities/letstalkaboutgender_leaders.pdf