To wonder when this became 'non binary'

[Cocklodger]

Or pansgender/grey gender/non binary etc?
I was chatting to a vague work colleague - works in a different site 50 miles away.
she believes she is non binary,
This is because she does not
Wear dresses, skirts, heels, makeup.
Prefers hoodies and jeans and trainers.
Enjoys riding a motorcycle and doing 'outdoorsy' things.
AIBU to wonder when this became any number of 101 labels and not just women doing things they're perfectly entitled to do in their lives?
I'm trying to do some research for a more in depth look at what nonbinary actually is...

thank you mewling

Why on earth do you need to have a label that says you like hoodies instead of a blouse or whatever? I never wore pink until I was mid 20s, but wear it frequently now - do I need to change my label? (and who would even care????)

I get irrationally annoyed that non-binary is included under the trans umbrella, when by its very name it is excluded. Trans/"cis" is a binary state, how can non-binary be part of that?

I've always thpught that women who do the hair make up heels and skirts thing as an all or nothing uniform were just the stupider women, in the same way that boys who dress in whatever their magazines tell them to wear are normally the thickos. At my uni the sportos..ie not the genuinely clever students..were all high heels blow dry and heavy make up types and guys the shirt and tie wankers. All the cool intelligent types were in dungarees, boyish dresses maybe, dr martens and t shirts/indie hoodies... you could be a woman and not be a 'sharon' and be a man.and not be a 'kev'

also in the 70s didnt male dockers have long blow dried haor, blouses and high heels and not have to be 'non binary' i fucking hate the sociology take-over

My experience of people who loudly ID as nonbinary has been mostly thus:

Women: young, a mix of having bought hook, line and sinker into the "I'm strong but also sometimes wear lipstick" gender bollocks, with a big helping of unconsciously not wanting to id as a woman (and especially a lesbian) because then you go to the bottom of the pecking order. Bonus: usefully signals "I'm deffo not one of those evil TERFs so don't attack me, please".

Men: generally young wankers who want an easy bulletproof way to be able to say "you can't call me sexist because I'm not a man" while being horribly sexist, plus they get to point to nasty ol' women as the Cis True Oppressors, not them. And an easy route to pressurising young bi women and lesbians to sleep with them otherwise they are bigots, and an easy in to "non-men" resources, attention and spaces without going all-out and calling themselves female. Bonus points for not having to change a damn thing about their appearance, name, behaviour, lives or anything else to claim this.

BTW like a lot of others on this thread, I'm non-binary by the definitions that are commonly cited.

You've totally nailed it, Annie.

I thought eunuchs had lost their bollocks, not their penises? I know this is a bit off topic but there was a bit of discussion a little further ^^

In ancient China it was both, most other cultures just the bollocks as you say

Depending on the culture, they're not always considered males as a result.

Wear dresses, skirts, heels, makeup.
Prefers hoodies and jeans and trainers.
Enjoys riding a motorcycle and doing 'outdoorsy' things.

Crikey, what next? Earning one's own money? Voting? Learning Latin? Learning to read and write?

How far back do we want to go in this madness of mixing up biological sex and socially imposed gender roles?

Because all the things I list were at points in history forbidden to women as being to "masculine" or "man like" and thus affecting women's "natural" roles as childbearers and mothers.

OP - is there a chance your friend is on the autistic spectrum? There's quite a high correlation between autism and trans ideology, and it seems as though this is an idea she's recently come across and gone full pelt with.

Also I'm another that would fit this definition but is most definitely a woman! (I'm also Spartacus)

What I have found so far alludes to ''I like both male things and female things so I'm nonbinary''

No. Just no.

Let's rewrite:

'I like both masculine things and feminine things so I'm a normal woman.

It strikes me that so much of this is a derogation of anything identified with female or femininity.

She's just described 80-90% of the Guiders I know. An entirely female movement.
For some of them it's hiking/camping/insert outdoor activity here but just look at the range of uniform intended for girls and women. Not a high heel in sight and the Guide skirt does not sell that well!
We leaders take great delight in setting up a tree plug on camp for girls who bring their straighteners. They don't twice.

I really worry about the inclusion of transgirls in the guiding movement. The whole point of Rainbows, Brownies and Guides is that they bust stereotypes, transgirls are the stereotype. That's what trans is, identifying with societies expectations for the male or female sex. The same societal expectations that oppress women and girls.

This special snowflake 'not-conforming-aren't-I-special' shite is prevalent on MN too - where girls aren't allowed to be pink and sparkly but boys are positively encouraged to be.

I'm actually a bit stunned at the girl guides thing, tbh. The Girl Guides, last bastion of the all female environment for young girls, and now all you have to do is "feel like a girl or woman inside" to have full access.
How long before they're busting their way into the Women's institute, just because they can?

I wonder if all those old fashioned "Gentlemens Clubs", (assuming there are any left) are as happy to accommodate women who "feel like men on the inside"?

It's quite literally a one way street, isn't it?

Thats not what that sort of thread actually says you know... much more simply that all kids should choose what** toys, sports, clothes etc they want, free of the restrictions of gender stereotypes. That far from being 'special' its entirely normal.

Flogging and Dame that topic is being discussed in other threads (or has finished being discussed) and is irrelevant to this thread I feel.

Flogging and Dame that topic is being discussed in other threads (or has finished being discussed) and is irrelevant to this thread I feel.

I know it's normal but posters take pride in the fact that their child plays with 'boys' or 'girls' toys - thus enforcing the stereotype. If it is normal it isn't worthy of note!

My DS is 12 and the other day he read an article in nat. geographic about gender. It had lots of "genders" and their descriptions. After reading he turned to me and said "I identify as a houseplant".

Yeah he's rather sarcastic, but I have always told him to question everything and draw his own conclusions and he did.

Livia - its only worthy of note because while ungendered behaviour is entirely normal for children, many don't get to choose it because of the prevalence of stereotypes. The threads are often started because of some instance of an adult or retailer or peer pressure driving conformity to stereotypes and then posters say 'bollocks' and (whether with 'pride' or simple statement of fact is perhaps down to the readers' interpretation) give examples.

LiviaDrusillaAugusta

I can easily see how being delighted that ones son likes glitter feels like just a subversion of the very stereotyping we try to dismantle. Nonetheless I also see it as an attempt to do just that.

Giving self expression such a high status is why goal posts are constantly moving.

As soon as something becomes ordinary and normal, another way to not confirm will come along.

I feel like saying I am über binary, have a panic attack if my eyelashes aren't symmetrical and get palpitations I break a nail or my soufflé doesn't rise. I'm a rebel, me.