To wonder when this became 'non binary'

[Cocklodger]

Or pansgender/grey gender/non binary etc?
I was chatting to a vague work colleague - works in a different site 50 miles away.
she believes she is non binary,
This is because she does not
Wear dresses, skirts, heels, makeup.
Prefers hoodies and jeans and trainers.
Enjoys riding a motorcycle and doing 'outdoorsy' things.
AIBU to wonder when this became any number of 101 labels and not just women doing things they're perfectly entitled to do in their lives?
I'm trying to do some research for a more in depth look at what nonbinary actually is...

I'd genuinely like to spit in the face of any twat who says shit like "liking motorcycles" or "not abusing make-up" makes you un-feminine

If I was a teenager now there's a very strong chance I'd be describing myself as 'non-binary'. I never wear dresses/skirts, I never wear heels, my hair is only long because I rarely go to the hairdressers, and I'm a big Star Wars fan.

I hate that we seem to be rapidly moving towards a point where only hyper-feminine women (and men) can call themselves female. if you don't aspire to look like a Kardashian or Jenner you must be non-binary! Where is the male version of this, by the way? Are all the non-hyper masculine men non-binary too? You never hear about men in all of this, they can just carry on as they are apparently...

Non binary is the most nonsensical expression (except in a mathematical sense) and meaningless in terms of human beings I've ever heard.

Surely gender neutral would be more appropriate? After all it actually means something.

Where is the male version of this, by the way?

Trump

Olympia - Gender neutral can apply to things, attitudes and laws, but I don't think it's particularly applicable to human individuals. Someone might be very 'feminine' in appearance but have 'masculine' interests. Why define people in terms of gender at all?

Yes, gender neutral or gender non conforming i can sort of understand and see it as kids rebelling and refusing to buy into male and female stereotypes - but in a trendy way. would love to see how they turn out in 10 or 20 years.

After reading this thread earlier today, I thought about someone I know online who has been heading in the general direction of 'non-binary' for the last year, and had a look at her twitter account. I was struck by this post -

"Not being heterosexual is self-care."

Doesn't that seem like it may be a deliberate decision to move away from relationships with boys/men? It's got me thinking that perhaps one of the motivations driving the 'non-binary/gender-fluid' movement is a kickback against the problem of toxic masculinity/porn culture young people are dealing with now. Is it the flipside of that coin? It's an angle I hadn't considered.

SingingSilver

It's an interesting angle. There was a poster on here a while back who said that five girls (five!) in her daughter's class at school came out as trans simultaneously.

There is obviously something going on rather than the whopping coincidence that the five girls were 'born in the wrong body'. Sometimes I think it's almost seen as aspirational because it's cool, trendy, edgy and different. Something that many teenagers gravitate towards. It was punk in my day. Previously it was cool to be bisexual and latterly be a goth.

However given the increase in sexual harassment of girls at school (driven by porn?) I'm wondering whether a girl coming out as a boy is a sort of Teflon coating? I'm wondering if it reduces the harassment. Would boys be less likely to harass a girl presenting as a boy? Would those boys be perceived as gay if they did pester the girls? Even if everyone knew the score really, i.e. it was just a front, it might still reduce the harassment.

There are many more girls than boys showing up at clinics saying they are trans. I can understand how young girls are frustrated with their stereotypical gender roles. But maybe there is more to it.

Datun That is a really interesting post. I hadn't thought of being non binary as 'teflon coating'. What a brilliant image.

Gender roles are to do with how society expects males and females to behave. Gender identity is whether the person sees themselves as male or female. It is perfectly possible to have a female gender but prefer to adopt some aspects of the male gender role. In fact most of us do if you use traditional gender roles as the norm.
What has happened recently is that people want to label these feelings and behaviours rather than just being themselves. My impression is that this is a part of the normal process of identity formation in the teen years.
Many of the labels refer to the same thing e.g. non binary/gender queer/a gender/gender non conforming etc can all mean the same experience.
The problem for people outside the groups having those conversations is that there is no consensus about what the terms mean! Many people for example would describe the OP's colleague as androgynous.

*'a gender' should read 'agender'

I'm about people raising eunuchs.
Eunuchs were often castrated so they posed no threat to a powerful person and could do jobs like e.g. guard the King's harem without impregnating the women. They were castrated precisely because this made them "less than men" socially (so less of a risk) and they were usually castrated before puberty and against their will.
Basically in my opinion they were mutilated and abused slaves at a time and in societies where gender rules were strongly adhered to and using them to justify the trans agenda is distasteful and disrespectful in the extreme.

^I wonder if all those old fashioned "Gentlemens Clubs", (assuming there are any left) are as happy to accommodate women who "feel like men on the inside"?
It's quite literally a one way street, isn't it?^

I am yet to see a transman ask for a content warning on a meme that suggests men have penises, or grow facial hair.

I am yet to have an argument with a group of cismen (or be asked to call men 'cismen' for that matter) who take issue with something I say about 'men', out of support for transmen.

I am yet to see someone who 'looks like a woman' calling to be treated as a man and ask for access to traditional male spaces or privileges.

And on the topic of third genders, the fact that we know of these groups is evidence that they are not taken wholly into the 'male' or 'female' group. I don't think many people would want to deny someone the right to exist in whatever form they choose. The issue is with the insistence that there be no third (4th/5th/6th...) gender, and that instead someone must be accepted without question as 'woman' or 'man' mostly woman and their voice on their lived experience as that gender accepted equally with those who have lived it since birth.

This is more of a problem for the 'women' group due to them having been oppressed, historically, by the people who are now claiming the right to speak as members of the group.

coldcanary

We seem to be going backwards with gender roles, as though you can only be truly female if you're into pink, sparkly traditionally feminine interests and clothes. If you don't fit that pattern then somebody somewhere has to pigeonhole you as something else.

This makes sense.

Doesn't that seem like it may be a deliberate decision to move away from relationships with boys/men? It's got me thinking that perhaps one of the motivations driving the 'non-binary/gender-fluid' movement is a kickback against the problem of toxic masculinity/porn culture young people are dealing with now. Is it the flipside of that coin? It's an angle I hadn't considered

And if you put that together with the still prejudice against being gay, that might start explaining further.

I think a lot of the current transgender trend is actually channelling homophobia. And neoliberal anti-feminism.

So true kaputt.

I wonder if all those old fashioned "Gentlemens Clubs", (assuming there are any left) are as happy to accommodate women who "feel like men on the inside"?

FloggingMolly lets make this the next MN meet up! All dress as men really badly, staying obviously female - and say that we "identify as men but present as women."

The reverse of this was seriously what a Green Party member said publicly to justify him speaking in a debate reserved for women's voices (part of that infamous "women are non-men" event).

The funny tragic part was that he was saying how inclusive the greens had been when they asked for women to speak up (as they hadn't heard many women's voices) and let him pipe up. So unaware of his own male privilege. Idiot.

I'd do it plush. We need she wees for the gents too.

Its all a little ridiculous and most people do not even know how far it has gone. Its got to the stage where I am actually 'transgender' because I feel like me rather than having some innate feeling of 'woman-ness'. I expect if you ask anyone if they feel like a man, a woman, or just themselves, the majority answer would be themselves.

The whole trans ideology rests on the assumption that everyone else except you and a select group of others follows gender stereotypes to the letter, which is simply ridiculous.

All dress as men really badly, staying obviously female - and say that we "identify as men but present as women."

This is horribly brilliant. I can just imagine it.

I'd keep my long hair and wear a skirt and, if asked why, say I'm 'widening the bandwidth of how to be a man.' They can't disprove 'feeling like a man,' can they? They'd have to let us all in.

Oh wait. It's only women who are expected to do that.

Is there a label for people who believe gender is a social construct? If so I'm one of them

I believe the term for that is 'TERF' and means you deserve to die in a fire. Sorry.

and say that we "identify as men but present as women."
We don't even need to do that. We can just lose it about "passing privilege"
I'm only 5'3" and curvy. Man boobs are a thing right? And it's trans phobic to bar me from manhood on account of my height. What right do men have to define what is an acceptable male body?
I know, I know, I don't have a penis. But what about prostate cancer survivors who have had orchiectomies? What about men with micropenis? Are they any less a man. God. So many penis fetishists out there.

Devi, no, that's not all the world is it.
And no, it's not a one way street. But the FTM trans people get less publicity because obviously a woman would want to be a man, that's not shocking at all... Which is more of a problem with sexist representation in the media/the patriarchy than trans culture.

It just fucks me right off that the first modern corrective surgery was in 1882 and was FTM yet everyone goes on about this 'fad' and 'trend' and how it's always MTF trying to encroach on people's spaces.

No one can claim to know what's in another person's head, or what their lived experience is. But how can it be a fad when evidence of trans/'non binary'/other genders have existed for centuries? When there were clubs for them recorded existing in the 19th century? How long does it have to be around to stop being a fad?

But the FTM trans people get less publicity because obviously a woman would want to be a man, that's not shocking at all

I disagree. I think FtM get less publicity as it is not them pushing for access to male spaces, calling gay men transphobic for not wanting to perform cunnilingus, refusing to acknowledge biology...telling male people they cannot describe themselves as men...and so on. Most TAs are male people. Meaning MtF.

All these labels !! I have started to live in fear of talking about any of this stuff in case I unintentionally upset someone.

All I'm bothered about is whether someone is a decent human being .