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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder when this became 'non binary'

268 replies

Cocklodger · 19/01/2017 14:40

Or pansgender/grey gender/non binary etc?
I was chatting to a vague work colleague - works in a different site 50 miles away.
she believes she is non binary,
This is because she does not
Wear dresses, skirts, heels, makeup.
Prefers hoodies and jeans and trainers.
Enjoys riding a motorcycle and doing 'outdoorsy' things.
AIBU to wonder when this became any number of 101 labels and not just women doing things they're perfectly entitled to do in their lives?
I'm trying to do some research for a more in depth look at what nonbinary actually is...

OP posts:
mothertruck3r · 22/01/2017 16:49

What happens if you choose to identify as a dinosaur? Will work give you special dispensation to eat your colleagues?

WankingMonkey · 22/01/2017 17:06

What happens if you choose to identify as a dinosaur? Will work give you special dispensation to eat your colleagues?
Well over the past few years we have established that trans-racial is unacceptable. Trans-abled is crazy (though IS actually a thing...people chopping off their own arms or blinding themselves). Trans-species is stupid. And despite identifying as a millionaire for a while I have yet to receive my payment...so trans-financial is clearly not accepted either Sad

Rixera · 22/01/2017 17:16

Condensedmilk- as long as you're speaking respectfully and generally being nice, putting your foot in it is alright. No one knows anything without learning it first.

And if you choose to identify as a dinosaur you're obviously being facetious, but the eating people is kind of harmful which gender expression generally isn't. In your own time, get a raw steak and fill your boots...

DeviTheGaelet · 22/01/2017 17:18

I agree with wanking

Rix most of what I see of historical evidence is actually people co-opting things that aren't trans. Such as you, above, with Eunuchs. Or native American "two spirits". Or women who dressed as men because that was the only way for them to pursue career/lifestyle options they wanted to. Or people who are intersex.
I don't think the current trans narrative was at all common. I'm sure people with gender dysphoria existed but I don't believe it was common. I think the current explosion in the number of trans/non binary genders is a socially driven, recent phenomenon.

That doesn't mean I don't believe trans people do/should exist. Clearly they do exist and people should be able to live and present however they like without discrimination. I just think it's insulting to take a class of people who had no real choice about their lives (eunuchs and intersex being my main objectives) and use them as justification for trans.

CondensedMilkSarnies · 22/01/2017 17:24

That's good to know Rixera . I guess some are just looking to be offended whatever the subject.

It's been a topic closer to me recently as I think my DD might be gay.

I just see it as no one is exactly
the same whether it's skin colour , gender , sexuality , taste in clothes or whatever.

kaputt · 22/01/2017 17:49

If this "men are more powerful and The Best" narrative is so strong that it's causing FTM transgenderism (I thought we were aiming to discover a biological basis? or is that just for MTF?) then people who have been raised male, whether or not they feel 'male', have definitely not escaped it.

It seems obvious to me that there are some MTF trans people who are operating from this position, and it's not even necessarily that they're actively trying to, just that socialisation is fucking difficult to escape.

And as I said before, that then becomes problematic when these same people are wanting full integration into the group they believe they control.

I come from a place with a high population of a culture with a third gender and the concept has been known to me since I was very small. I couldn't say how it is in other cultures, or how it is historically, but the one I'm familiar with, I'd say this third gender contained a high proportion of people who had this gender 'given' to them, and were raised to fit it.

A significant number of them are your 'typical' camp gay man, in a culture where being gay was not acceptable - but their behaviour became acceptable in the context of this third gender. A further significant number were children in large families of male sons, and were raised as this gender because someone was needed to assist with 'womens' tasks and it wouldn't be acceptable for a male son to do so.

Neat solutions to 'problems' of a culture that has strict rules about gender and sexuality, but none indicate to me that these people experienced what we currently think of as gender dysphoria or a sense that they 'wanted' to be a different gender.

DeviTheGaelet · 22/01/2017 18:41

That's really interesting kaputt thank you.
There is a school of thought that many FTM or non-binary women are actually trying to escape the expectations society places on girls to be feminine.
I don't know but it seems likely. We hear a lot less about FTM despite that being the bigger group in teenagers (and the fastest growing)

PlushVelvet · 22/01/2017 18:55

Or women who dressed as men because that was the only way for them to pursue career/lifestyle options they wanted to

In my professional life, I have looked at this issue in the 19C - from the evidence we have, it was either a) women wishing to pursue stereotypically masculine professions eg going soldiering or b) lesbians.

ArcheryAnnie · 23/01/2017 10:36

But how can it be a fad when evidence of trans/'non binary'/other genders have existed for centuries? When there were clubs for them recorded existing in the 19th century?

What "evidence", Rixera?

There's a lot of evidence about, say, women who had to dress as men in order to live out their lives being taken as, oh, fully human, in circs where women were denied the opportunity to pursue professions. There's a lot of evidence about women who loved other women. There's a lot of evidence of people who did not conform to gender norms, and chose to live their lives differently. This does not make any of them non-binary or trans, since both non-binary and trans are very recent concepts. (Terms non-binary and trans as terms are long-standing, but the way we understand both concepts now are very different. Most of the few people who described themselves as "trans" in the 70s and 80s would have meant something very different from most people who describe themselves as trans now, for example, and that is a very recent timehop.)

In a political climate where "misgendering" is painted as ACTUAL VIOLENCE WHICH IS LITERALLY KILLING TRANS PEOPLE OMG, I am so heartily sick of the ahistorical, misogynist bollocks of retrospectively transing people from the past. What's that, if not misgendering?

GatoradeMeBitch · 23/01/2017 12:23

But how can it be a fad when evidence of trans/'non binary'/other genders have existed for centuries?

There will be genuine cases of course. But as someone said upthread, it's very unlikely five girls in one class were all born in the wrong body.

I 'm a casual follower of the Johnlock fandom (a large collective of Sherlock fans based on tumblr who believe Sherlock and Watson are secretly in love). And what fascinates me is that the overwhelming majority of people in that fandom are girls who decide they are gender-neutral and often gay as well. Some of them make videos on YT or snapchat and you can see them change as they get deeper into the fandom. They cut their hair, stop wearing makeup, start wearing ties, adopt male names, then announce their preferred pronouns and newly discovered sexualities.

After Sherlock ended without the kiss and declaration of love they'd all been expecting, several girls made posts in the vein of "Am I even a gender-fluid pansexual?! Have I just been part of a mass delusion?"

venusinscorpio · 23/01/2017 12:55

That is fascinating Gatorade.

M0stlyHet · 23/01/2017 13:14

Kaputt - "Neat solutions to 'problems' of a culture that has strict rules about gender and sexuality, but none indicate to me that these people experienced what we currently think of as gender dysphoria or a sense that they 'wanted' to be a different gender."

That squares with what a friend of mine (university lecturer in anthropology) tells me: third genders are far more common in societies with very rigid gender roles (where gender here is understood in the old fashioned social science sense of socially sanctioned set of occupations, behaviours, roles and clothing considered appropriate for your biological sex).

drspouse · 24/01/2017 10:17

third genders are far more common in societies with very rigid gender roles

I have heard about these types of third genders but to be honest were there any traditional societies that did not have rigid gender roles?

M0stlyHet · 24/01/2017 10:39

According to my friend, all societies everywhere have had gender roles. The strength of the demarcations and where the lines are drawn, however, and whether there is a set of occupations where it doesn't matter, are variable.

So for instance in almost all pre-industrial societies care of small infants is a female activity, hunting large animals and/or agriculture with large draft animals is almost always a male activity. (Basically, as a rule of thumb, ask yourself "in a society with no contraception, could a woman in the third trimester of pregnancy or with a toddler on her hip do this particular activity?")

But there are occupations in the middle which get allocated differently in different societies - e.g. for the Navajo in California, weaving was traditionally women's work, for Medieval society in the SW of England, weaving was traditionally men's work. And of course there's the issue of what happens when someone transgresses boundaries - a widow who for instance continues with her husband's weaving business because it pays more than spinning (traditionally female). Is the reaction "ah she's a bit odd, but at least she's keeping the children fed" or is it "stone the witch!"? The former would be a society with reasonably flexible gender boundaries, the latter one with rigid boundaries (in anthropologist speak).

Interestingly, this doesn't necessarily correlate with women's status within the society. The Iroquois, for example, had fairly rigid gender roles, but women owned the farm land, passed it down to their daughters in a matrilineal inheritance system, and wielded political power (including being able to veto decisions to go to war with neighbouring tribes).

In this sense, the existence of third genders as a social category culturally specific to a particular group of people does seem to correlate with that society viewing gender (in the sense of socially-sanctioned roles and behaviours appropriate to one sex or the other) as a rigid thing, rather than a looser and more flexible set of rules (most people live in these boxes but we tolerate exceptions). Bacha posh in Afghanistan, for instance, would fit this - a rigid set of roles, but families with no boy children (seen as a disaster in an incredibly patriarchal society) can bring up a daughter as if she was a boy - though she has to revert after puberty. Or sworn virgins in Albania - can live their whole lives as men so long as they don't have any sort of romantic or sexual relationship. Probably the ethnographic groups where this has been studied in most detail are N American tribes, and again, there seems to be this correlation between rigidity and third genders.

ArcheryAnnie · 24/01/2017 11:41

I've always thought it must be incredibly difficult to have been a Bacha Posh - to have had a taste of what being treated like an actual fucking human being means, grow up with relative freedom, and then have it taken away.

Ruth1015 · 05/02/2021 12:29

So non binary identity is not really defined by anything other than the person thinking of themselves as non binary. Of course, you are not non binary just because you like outdoorsy things, that is ridiculous and shows that gender is really a social construct. If they say they are non binary, ask for their pronouns and use them as much as you can. Of course it’s hard to remember sometimes, but try your best and apologise when you mess up. I don’t know why some people (not referring to OP) feel the need to demonise trans folk. We can’t control being trans, and most of us are certainly not evil men who want access to woman’s/gender neutral bathrooms just to rape/abuse people!!!

gardenbird48 · 05/02/2021 12:36

That’s quite an old thread you’ve revived there. I don’t really understand the point you are making other than gender is a social construct which I would agree with.

I don’t care how people choose to identify themselves as long as I am not forced to deny the reality of the sex of person I see in front of me and am not being required to give up my single sex spaces.

Barracker · 05/02/2021 15:55

It's the second zombie thread Ruth1015 has inexplicably chosen to revive.

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