To wonder when this became 'non binary'

[Cocklodger]

Or pansgender/grey gender/non binary etc?
I was chatting to a vague work colleague - works in a different site 50 miles away.
she believes she is non binary,
This is because she does not
Wear dresses, skirts, heels, makeup.
Prefers hoodies and jeans and trainers.
Enjoys riding a motorcycle and doing 'outdoorsy' things.
AIBU to wonder when this became any number of 101 labels and not just women doing things they're perfectly entitled to do in their lives?
I'm trying to do some research for a more in depth look at what nonbinary actually is...

Haven't read the full thread - apologies!

This makes me mad really as all it's doing is compartmdntalising and stereotyping women - women can like all of those things / women can like high heels / women can like sleeping with men or sleeping with women - women can do pretty much anything and still be women - they are women because of their chromosomes and the presence of a vagina / absence of a penis. To take casual clothes/ outdoosiness away from women is turning us into a characature of a woman and a rather two dimensional one at that! Am going to shut up now before I rant!

"imagine you were taken out of your body and put in a totally genderless body" 🙄

How...scientific

iggi "I always found an easy label to apply to myself if anyone expressed surprise that, as a make up & skirt wearing woman, I was also able to lay flooring, build furniture, travel alone, and all the other non "girly" things that women do - the label being that I'm a feminist "

wow, I don't know where to start with that one. Some people think feminist means anti-men. I have been criticised by a so-called feminist for travelling alone - although actually I don't know why she called herself a feminist as she couldn't even pee without her husband's permission.

it's come to the point where I don't want to discuss the terminology for anything as well but the difficulty is, if we all start speaking a different language with no agreed definitions, we will lose all track of what is going

which brings me right back to women's safe spaces...

I do find the constant renaming of everything very annoying and I have definitely lost the plot on this one but I was just adding my comment because recently I've recently that if - maybe in a younger age group than mine - you've grown up in a world where it's really not normal for women to do or be certain things, you might then latch on to the term gender non-binary. I do agree with a pp that it's such a shame this happened and just as I thought the whole bloody gender crap had gone out of the window - again, possibly due to the echo chamber factor....

In Stormtreader's example, you would be likely to pick to stay the sex you were because you have lived that way for x number of years. I don't see how you can remove the biology from that. I'd quite fancy being a man in this scenario, would be nice to live for a while with all that male privilege.

Lorelei I can't tell if you quoted me because you agreed or disagreed with the point I made?

I don't care who consenting adult humans fuck. As long as its each other.

Anyone tossing about accusations of homophobia should be ashamed. Not to mention obviously ignorant of the despicable treatment of lesbians by many Transactivists.

Indeed there are many LGB people who would and do argue that T has no business being aligned to them.

I would agree.

As an aside have been majorly irritated by a year 9 science test where a question talking about chromosomes (XX / XY) asks students to work out the % likelihood that a babies GENDER is female - surely they are working out tge % likelihood that tge babies sex is female?? Have been stewing on this for several days ...

Maybe your colleague is telling you that she is non-binary simply as a way of explaining her appearance, activities and personality. It might be because she's had comments about how she is and feels the need to explain. It may be that she fears you would meet her and think she's a lesbian/miss the fact that she's a lesbian/does not want to discuss sexual orientation and finds this a better approach. She might be trying to avoid being invited on a girls night out as it's not her thing. Sounds like a great line to use if you want to be left alone or given special status, or both, ironically. It's a bit of a heavy conversation for the office. Don't you have work to do?

It doesn't really matter if she decides to be a he or a she as she will still have a name, and the same personality, hobbies and appearance.

I'd also be researching histrionic personality disorder if I were you...

Well I've read a few interviews now and none binary was described as feeling not particularly male or female, or something other. It's rediculous. This is a normal fluctuation of feelings most of us have. I don't wake up thinking or feeling feminine. I just sometimes am, but I'm also capable of masculine behaviour and feelings. The important thing here is gender is biological only, behaviours are just that, behaviours. Yes we have old sexist beliefs which I do believe contribute to true gender disphoria. But IMO this none binary is just another ok example of our label crazy world.

I do believe genuine cases of feeling transgender exist, but it's not as widespread as reported. I wouldn't link the label none binary to transgender either, as it's a normal fluctuation. To me a person with gender dysphoria would need to suffer extreme disgust and lack of association with who they are biologically and who they think they should appear as gender wise due to this. This whole none binary is a mockery of what is a rare and true condition.

Iggi - I'm just saying the word "feminism" means so many things to people now - there was a recent survey about how few people identify with it.

If you mean you're an independent woman and you wanted to use "feminist" to describe that, I can see why. But I am not sure that's how others interpret it.

sorry I can't even give a yes or no answer to your question - but even on here you get posters saying that feminists are basically weird man haters and don't see it as having anything to do with independence.

Massive amount of "gender" being used to mean sex on this thread. Gender is a stereotypical view of how the sexes behave. The people using the term "genderqueer" or gender fluid don't understand that they don't have to follow those rules and that it's not particularly progressive to claim you are unique and different but everyone else just needs to suck it up. It is special snowflakery writ large.

i'd be doing something more important in my own life if i was you rather than concerning about your colleagues whims and labels of herself.

I'd have a go in a male body in storm's example too. Could well do without periods and a penis sounds like fun. Can't think of much that I'd miss about having a female body.
Doesn't mean I identify as a man now though.

""imagine you were taken out of your body and put in a totally genderless body" 🙄

How...scientific"

I'm glad you appreciated it, Bellend! :) Since I'm sure you're aware that "set up a scenario to remove all unnecessary variables so you can focus on the one you're investigating" is the essence of scientific experiments.

The variable of this one is "how does someone know if they are 'female' or 'male' gendered", not "do they like wearing pretty dresses or do they like football". Starting from true neutral is the easiest way to start thinking about that.

Aye?

All this time I thought I was doing what the hell I wanted to and now these little pricks are trying to put me in a box and label me.

Fuck off.

In my day labels weren't necessary to fit in.

I'm not 'non binary'. I'm AnxiousArmy.

Bauble16 - some cultures have traditionally had , and continue to have, more than two genders (Samoa spring to mind, but I believe there are others).

I think you're equating sex and gender.

It's not a true neutral though as the person has a lived experience prior to being turned genderless. You'd need to do it to newborn babies.

Lorelie I have a similar approach to people who thing feminist means "weird and man-hating" as I do to people who think vegetarian means "fish and the odd bacon sarnie" - I dismiss them as they don't get to redefine the word, there's a dictionary definition.

Stormtreader, you're using "gender"when you mean sex. Its unhelpful and confusing. I don't have any way of understanding what a man with gender dysphoria feels, but I know he cannot know he feels like a woman, because he has no idea. Whether or not he does is immaterial. He can only know he doesn't feel like what he thinks a man should feel.

I can load and fire a shotgun, string and shoot a bow.
Wire a plug, plumb in a washing machine.
Repair almost anything that regularly goes wrong with a bicycle.
I know more about World War II than most people and can tell apart a Bren, a Sten, a Vickers and an SMLE.

As a child, knee deep in mud and clutching a toy car, I would no doubt now be tagged as 'gender non-conforming'. I am, nonetheless, a straight woman. Just a practical one.

I can quite understand that some people feel born into the wrong body. If they're prepared to undergo the hormones and the surgery, it must really matter to them, and fair enough.

However, this 641 different genders or whatever the total is now is completely pointless attention-seeking snowflakery. Just be who you are. Gender rules are there to be bloody broken. Just get on and break the bloody things without expecting trumpet fanfares.

What is binary anyway? Barbour and ken?
It is just some nonsense cooked up on the net.

Our expressions of it are a cultural thing. In many cultures, 'third gender' or versions of it have been/are currently an accepted 'thing'.

Only as far as I know in cultures that had particularly restrictive gender roles.

The variable of this one is "how does someone know if they are 'female' or 'male' gendered", not "do they like wearing pretty dresses or do they like football". Starting from true neutral is the easiest way to start thinking about that.

The problem with that is that gender is imposed, not innate.

AnxiousArmy - people didn't use the terms 'boy', 'girl', 'man' or 'woman' when you were growing up? When and where was that?

I've always thought that having to shave the face daily might be more than a pain in the arse than having periods, but given the current beard trend, men are currently free of that chore if they so choose.

I can load and fire a shotgun, string and shoot a bow.
Wire a plug and plumb in a washing machine.
Fix most things that normally go wrong with a bicycle.
Also crochet, sew and cook.

As a child, knee deep in mud and clutching a toy car, I'd probably now be labelled 'gender non-conforming.' As it is, I'm a straight woman.

I can well believe that there are people who feel themselves to be in the wrong body. If they're prepared to go through the hormones and the surgery, I wish them well.

But all this 672 genders or however many we have now is just attention-seeking snowflakery. Gender rules are there to be broken. Just bloody break them and get over yourself.