To wonder when this became 'non binary'

[Cocklodger]

Or pansgender/grey gender/non binary etc?
I was chatting to a vague work colleague - works in a different site 50 miles away.
she believes she is non binary,
This is because she does not
Wear dresses, skirts, heels, makeup.
Prefers hoodies and jeans and trainers.
Enjoys riding a motorcycle and doing 'outdoorsy' things.
AIBU to wonder when this became any number of 101 labels and not just women doing things they're perfectly entitled to do in their lives?
I'm trying to do some research for a more in depth look at what nonbinary actually is...

I didn't actually say that. But you also don't get to take safe spaces away from trans people because you don't believe they exist.

If it hurts enough for people to kill themselves over can we not just say alright, you experience life differently to me and move on?

And yes, in my opinion it is just like treating people for being gay. It was a group of people telling svulnerable others they didn't exist.
(Despite different genders and sexualities having acceptance recorded in ancient Greek texts and so on but whatever)

Yes, FloggingMolly. And they brought it in secretly - snuck it in along with guidance on talking about trans issues during guide meetings without mentioning that we now can accept males who self-identity as girls.

I hardly ever wear heels or make-up, but I do wear dresses to work most of the time. I can ride a motorbike, wire a plug, plumb in a washing machine etc but am totally freaked out at the thought of dealing with a mouse trap. I like to knit and do cross-stich.

I clearly am very confused, I thought I was just a woman. Or indeed a person. On the other hand, if I describe myself as non-binary on my next job application will I be able to claim discrimination if I don't get it?

Transwomen can have safe spaces.

They're just not having mine. They're taken.

They can fight for their own. We had to.

Well, that's a nice attitude to have ...
And actually they are

Sounds like a load of codswallop to me.

Why do you need a special label just because you don't conform to some out-dated stereotype of what your gender is supposed to do /like? The fact that anyone thinks that makes them "different" implies that they bought in to the stereotype in the first place.

To quote "Life of Brian" - we are all individuals!

Anyway, what is the opposite of non-binary?

(I suppose it would be 11001010 or similar)

How can "woman" be a primitive term, when it's apparently also possible for a woman to self identify as a man? ( They don't seem to do this in quite such large numbers, oddly enough. Or maybe they're just not as vocal). Why does this not impact on the word "man" as a descriptor in any way?

Rixera - you seriously think that This is about females telling vulnerable males that they don't exist? And more so, that we are oppressors?

Oh Lord, you need to read MORE.

I'm not very knowledgeable on gender politics, but I do have a good friend who has identified as non-binary for a number of years. I've always thought it was more profound than a person having certain hobbies, therefore they're non binary, but maybe there's a range (genuinely don't know).

I''ll use female pronouns as she has said she doesn't particularly mind what people use, and she is biologically female. I tend to use male or sometimes neutral pronouns irl though.

My friend presents in a very androgynous manner and her name isn't gendered. I've had mutual friends who have met her for the first time (and spent hours in her company), who have later asked me her sex and gender.

She has a vagina, but has had her breasts removed and her chest reconstructed as a male chest. I think she intends to have hormone therapy if her body shape becomes more feminine as she ages. I believe she is pansexual or queer, but has not actually told me.

Pronouns have changed over time (originally feminine, then masculine, now whatever).

She's more comfortable with herself than she was growing up and seems much happier generally.

I appreciate gender politics are a hot topic on here and I have no interest in debating it, but I have no issues with accepting my friends' identity. It is significant to them and i am just happy that they're now happy with themself.

I'll give you that Rixera.

Yes they are.

You know what? They always do.

It's called Patriarchy.

Buy a book.

No, user, because not all trans people are biologically male.

Thank you Floggingmolly that's the kind of question I need to ask I think. My problem is their vocabulary is so intimidating I have no idea what they are talking about most of the time. I think I've found the most special of snowflakes.

User specified trans women, Rixera, you know perfectly well she did

I think this is probably conflating a lot of things by the way
I am also Spartacus

To me, gender is a nonsense, just a stereotype. So someone saying "I am gender non binary" is just saying "I don't conform to the stereotype". Maybe I've got that wrong.

what I find sad is that the stereotype has become so entrenched that people are starting to equate physically female with a stereotype of make up wearing, dress wearing, doesn't do anything that might break a nail.

if someone was raised on that stereotype, they might want to say "I'm gender non binary".

I haven't commented on one of these threads in a while because it's all got so mixed up, but it was interesting timing for me because that "woman all dolled up to go running" promo irritated me so much.

there was a thread recently about the 80s - the emphasis on appearance has just got so full on, of course it's all commercial but that now dominates everything.

Nobody wants to take safe spaces away from trans people.

Nobody is claiming they don't exist.

If it hurts enough for people to kill themselves over can we not just say alright, you experience life differently to me and move on?
Absolutely agree. But that applies to everyone and the reported suicide statistics of transgender individuals are manipulated to the point that they are basically false. It comes across as "I'll kill myself if I don't get my own way", which is emotional blackmail and it's being used to take safe spaces from females.

And yes, in my opinion it is just like treating people for being gay. It was a group of people telling svulnerable others they didn't exist.
Again, no-one is telling anyone they don't exist; it's well recognised that some people are not comfortable in their own bodies, but some of us are questioning how they know they are the opposite sex?

It's all beyond me. The Guardian published a piece on Chelsea Manning yesterday and her fight for transgender rights. It contained this:

"Manning refused to give up. With a quiet dignity, she pushed forward. Working with her tireless attorneys she stood up for herself, and in doing so, stood up for all trans people.

"Over time, she secured one legal victory after another, gaining access to makeup, some appropriate clothing items, and hormone therapy."

I'm sure Manning did stand up for herself. But makeup? Since when is the right to wear makeup a victory, other than for outmoded, patriarchal ideas of what it means to be a woman?

But how can they prove themselves when questioned? There's no way to definitively prove gender or sexuality since it's an experience.
And it would be hard to take away trans women's spaces since there are so few...

It all just smacks of fear and punishing the many for the sake of the few. The fear that they will be lying in order to rape women and children, which I have seen parroted, which seems really quite excessive.

I think it's a shame that after bursting out of the stereotypical F/M roles, society finds it necessary to come up with yet more labels.

I have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of DIY, know how to use an electric drill, can lay a laminate floor, know where all the fuse boxes are, taught several men how to fish for Pike... When I went to fishing tackle shops, I was thoroughly questioned by the male staff, "Is this a gift for your dad or bf?", and they'd try to "help", even though I had a list of exactly what I needed. Then the most condescending of remarks, which I'd get a lot, "You don't look like the sort of GIRL to do XYZ".

Didn't feel binary gendered though, these are just things that I can do. No label needed.

I'm with user1471551792
I've just read a tweet by Julie Bindell, commenting on a tweet that (referring to a man who kept women's genitalia in his freezer) said "this story is horrible, but the inherent cissexism is even worse.". Yes. Even worse than keeping pieces of women in your freezer, is stating that those bits came from women.

ZippyNeedsFeeding
I'm perfectly happy for people to identify as hatstands if that makes them happy. Or change their gender identification every second Thursday. Just please, can I be excused from caring?

This with bells on. Do what the fuck you want, be what you want, call yourself what you want - I don't give a shit and nor do I want to hear or read about it.

I always found an easy label to apply to myself if anyone expressed surprise that, as a make up & skirt wearing woman, I was also able to lay flooring, build furniture, travel alone, and all the other non "girly" things that women do - the label being that I'm a feminist Why won't that suffice any more instead of non-binary?

Jesus.

We are doomed.

user1471551792

"It all just smacks of fear and punishing the many for the sake of the few."

Oh, the irony.

some of us are questioning how they know they are the opposite sex?

I imagine it as: imagine you were taken out of your body and put in a totally genderless body. Then you were shown a male and female body and told "we can put you in one of these for the rest of your life, which one is you?"

I think most people would immediately pick the one in the gender they were born in, I know I would. But some people always felt wrong in their birth gender and would pick the other one.
Some people would answer "well I dont know, today I would choose that one but if you asked tomorrow my answer might be different." Theyre genderqueer.

I think if you're a woman and can find a way to express yourself happily within that then that's great - and should of course include any parameters you choose.

But if you don't feel you can be happy with this for whatever reasons then surely as a human being you also have the options to describe yourself in any way that suits you, including non-binary or trans or male.

I liked something Louis Thoreau once said about "whatever gets you through". Live and let live.

It does slightly concern me though that the ideas of what it means to be female seem to have narrowed rather than expanded in the last generation?