To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

Try not to worry yourself about it. Just arrange to see your relative again when you can & try to help DS1 think of some things to talk about or show her.

If you think he'd be up for it & not find it a chore, he could draw her a picture or write her a note. But as a nice thing to send to x, not as a punishment!

Your Mum, stop sucking it up. Tell her straight 'Well, it would have been nice if you had bothered to talk to him. He's 9, what's your excuse?'

It's very hard on him, his parents have split up, he's feeling shy/awkward, his younger brother is as good as he is at many things... people forget that children are people too, often struggling with their thoughts/feelings/lives - it's not all Lego & Ice Cream.

I think there have also been some harsh responses - I agree your DS was rude, but he is 9 and probably didn't realise, was tired after a long journey and felt socially awkward - especially when his attempts to speak weren't heard. You can;t always expect young children to know what to do in a socially difficult situation - they need help.

I wouldn't have brought toys/tablets/colouring - I'd have expected them to sit at the table and and sit round the right way. But I would have consciously made efforts to include them in the conversation by referring it to them when anything relevant came up. I would have talked to them myself if others didn't.

My DD was painfully shy at that age, but she listened to conversation managed to look interested and nod and answered questions if asked directly. I don't think anyone expects a child to initiate conversation or hold forth - in fact that might be annoying. But being polite can simply mean sitting up nicely and looking as if you are interested.

Back at the flat, I'd say the adults do have some responsibility. Two hour meal plus two hour chatting is too long for a child. If I'd known I was having children visitors, I'd have thought about entertainment for them, and his grandparents should have tried a bit harder with them.

My parents would have had a board game or something and my Dad would have said to the awkward child 'Lets have a game - you be on my team' or something to include him. My elderly aunts, who had no children used to teach us old fashioned card games when we visited, or get out old books to show us, or find 'mystery objects' from their travels and we had to guess what they were.

When I've had shy children (at work or as visitors) I give them jobs as others have suggested and try to involve them.

So it's a combination. There shouldn't be an expectation on him to be the life and soul of the party, especially when it is largely adult conversation - adults do have to take some responsibility for engaging all their guests - whether children or adults.

But I would avoid taking stuff with me to give him that makes him appear rude - tablets, toys etc. That says 'I'm bored and fed up and don;t want to talk' rather than 'I'm shy and need a bit of encouragement'

For goodness sake, it must have been really hard for your son. If he didn't know elderly relative that well it must have been really awkward for him. And OP said he only turned away a little, he didn't turn his back / ignore her. I hated visiting some relatives when I was this age cause I didn't know them and they didn't try to know me.

Next time, don't agree to 3 hour drive / lunch. Say you would like to meet up but get them to come to you or meet half way, and explain in advance they DC will need some time off 'being on show' like this

Wow, lots of harsh responses on here.

I'm with you OP and I wouldn't punish your DS1, he's 9 and learning how to behave so I would talk to him about expectations and make sure next time, he is better prepared for how he should be behaving. I can see how hard it was for him if his brother is being life and soul of the party and he's finding social situations harder being older and more aware.

My DS is 7 and has to do a 3 hr journey to see his elderly grandad which normally means a pub meal and then back to his house for an hour or so. We always take things for him to do and would expect still to do so at 9. Grandad makes little effort to interact with DS - they're probably at similar levels socially now tbh so we do the interacting between them and accept that the young one and the old one both find it difficult.

Started off thinking ur ds was rude and ur making excuses, but does sound like a ridiculously boring day for kids, plus presumably the divorce is having an affect on him. However, I'd do what I think u said earlier, talk to him, I found it useful to explain that people see ur behaviour, notwhat ur thinking and feeling, so ur relative saw him being rude, turning his back rudely, while he may have felt completely different.

starry what a charming mother you do sound!

Op ignore the nasty comments some people know no better and either have no children or shouldn't have children

I've stumbled onto the Daily Mail surely?!! FFS he's a CHILD! Surely some of these posters have never actually been in a room with one, but if they did they'd want it to know its place!!

Please don't punish him I'm sure it wasn't intentional. Some guidance on appropriate behaviour when visiting relatives would be as far as I'd be prepared to go. But 'punishing' .... not really.

My Dad often tells the story of him aged 9 being taken by his parents for afternoon tea at elderly relatives' house in about 1946.

He sat quietly minding his own business, occasionally looking at a book he had taken with him, while the adults chatted away then was utterly bewildered on the way home when his parents chastised him and sent him to bed with no tea for 'being rude'.

We laugh about it but he's still baffled to this day about what he did wrong. My Dad is one of the most well mannered souls I know.

I think your approach is fine OP. It would be worth having a word with him, so that hopefully it will go better next time, but punishment would be OTT. I would however, love to meet all these amazing MN children who could easily cope with 3 hours in a car, followed by several hours sat making polite conversation with elderly relatives, and still display perfect manners throughout! I know my DS would struggle!

YANBU at all and he was not being rude. Rudeness would have been active misbehaviour. He sounds as if he was feeling shy and self-conscious. Turning away from people in conversation isn't ideal, but that's something to have a quiet word with him about later, not punish him for. Lots of children have difficulty picking up on or following 'social rules.' Plenty of adults do too, and the idea that a quieter person is 'rude' isn't one I agree with. Being told off for not interacting more isn't going to help him, but giving him tips on how to join in, in a way that he's comfortable with, might.

When I was a child I was painfully shy. When I went on visits like this I'd greet the people we were visiting, then sit either silently listening to the adult conversation, or reading a book. I was often praised for being well-behaved because of this! As a previous poster said, expectations have changed a bit and it's much harder for shy or socially anxious children now.

I would not punish at all. A difficult day for a nine year old. Do all the posters who say he was rude have children who behave perfectly in all social occasions?

I have grandchildren and would certainly understand that tablet use may be necessary for a short time to keep a child amused when adults wish to talk.

Children go through stages in life and I would not blow up this episode into such a matter of great importance. He will mature.

I've got a 10 year old. She's shy (not a disability ), and also wouldn't relish 3 hrs in a car.
Neither would she turn her back on anyone, because that's rude. If she had a social disorder of some kind that would be different. And yes I would pull her up on it if she behaved like that because she's 10. She knows better. Shy but well mannered. They're not exclusive.
Or in MN world she's 'perfect' and I'm a daily mail reader.
If op knows her kid has issues under investigation then that's a separate thing, but under NT 9 year old standards he was rude.

Also astounded at the mean responses on this thread. Your DS sounds a lot like my DD1 (she has Aspergers) - she would have been dying a little inside at such a family gathering. MN is obsessed with "rudeness", at the expense of a bit of compassion.

As an adult that would be a difficult day for me. Which is why I don't go across to my BILs whrn the ILs visit him since all we do is loiter around his house while they cook dinner. DH and the boys go over. I see them elsewhere but that is just a waste of an afternoon for me.

I was a sociable, polite, chatty little girl at 9 but just like my eldest daughter, in the presence of relatives I saw infrequently, I'd clam up and find it really difficult to chat to them. I felt really anxious. My parents didn't punish me for it as they were shy too. Am now a confident, sociable person who can chat to strangers without problem. This little lad will be fine.

DD didn't get diagnosed until she was 18, so at nine you lot would have been tutting and judging her for the rudeness because she "didn't have special needs."

I remember 10 hour (staying over half-way) drives to visit my dad's aunts. They were his late mother's sisters, two lovely Cornish ladies who came to the US as young girls. Even when I was 7 or 10 I would be spellbound by their stories and memories. They were a touchstone for my dad in his memories of his mum. We were expected to participate at whatever meal we shared and for a bit thereafter. But once we were asked about school and our activties and were told the stories we requested over and over, we would then be excused to 'go play' whilst the adults continued the visit. I'd go into a bedroom where there were stacks of children's books set out and my DB would go outside to dig around and climb the trees. We'd usually be called in for a bit of cake or biscuits and some tea just before we left. I wish I could make that cake, Auntie wouldn't give the recipe, just bits and pieces of it. All I can remember was that it had saffron and, I think, sherry in it. And I still remember the taste of that tea (milk and sugar, thank you!).

I don't think children should ignore elderly relatives, they should be able to answer questions about themselves at minimum. But nor do I think they should have to sit for hours listening to adults converse. It's perfectly fine to 'excuse' them to another area or a quiet activity.

If no SN very rude, and OP, you really seem at pains to excuse it... even going as far as to hark back to a tale of THREE years ago where he interacted really well with your DF.

I'm really very shy but would did had explained to me before the age of 9 how to behave in a politely and to be mindful of others.

If no SN I would have to say he should be able to behave better than has been displayed, and its a shame for your elderly relative who was possibly looking forward to the day out... perhaps frustrating for the elderly relative to have someone sit with their back to them and for them not to be able to hear them.... I dont know, maybe they have hearing issues and you could have been a bit more considerate in asking DS to be courteous and respectful - which is a nice life lesson.

OMG. I love being an adult.

No 3 hour journeys and boring pub lunches for me. Unless I choose too. I do feel sorry for little kids.

Hence not having any

I don't quite get the relevance of the 3hr journey tbh and why a pub lunch would not be ideal after it. I would have let my dc read or play on a tablet during the car journey when there was nothing else to do, rather than in the pub where there was food to eat and people to talk to (whatever their age).

I don't think that your ds was terribly rude though OP, and a little chat would definitely be more appropriate than punishment or a major telling off.

wounded, he was rude, having his back towards the relative, and not making an effort. You need to think of sanctions for that. There are things we have to do in life, but we do them, the least I would expect is some politeness.

Thinking about being rude/polite.

Why is it considered polite to force children to sit still facing any (elderly) relative for 2-4 hours straight, listening to adult conversation that is of zero interest or relevance, waiting for that one comment which might never come, "so how are you doing at school".

And allowing a child a toy to occupy themselves so they don't grow up thinking visiting their relative is a horrible experience is considered rude and might give people the wrong impression? As an adult I wouldn't expect or want any friend, work college or relative to sit beside me for 2-4 staring into space whilst I had a conversation with others that had nothing to do with them.

Where do people get this view of society, it just seems weird and twisted?

If relatives want to talk to children then they have a window at the start, maybe ten minutes, if they have nothing to say to them let them go off and do something more productive/entertaining.