To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

OP, You are STILL excusing his very rude behaviour.
Even if he DID have ASD, that doesn't excuse rudeness. If he did have ASD, he would still need to have it explained to him that social expectations are ..... generally people would find this rude. Can he see that? So, even if he didn't mean to .... it comes across as rude, so in future .... don't do that.....

Those are the type of conversations I have with ASD ds1, in my attempts to help him.

I suspect some of this may be down to unfulfilled expectations rather than bad behaviour. It doesn't sound like he has been deliberately rude but his behaviour could be perceived as that when judged by adult standards.

He is only 9 and not old enough to know what is expected of him so it is your job, as a parent, to tell him and support him in it. It might have been very different if, before the visit, you had said "Today we are going to visit X. She is very old and doesn't hear well but it will make her very happy if you could talk to her clearly and face her so she can see you speak". My children always behaved far better when they knew what was expected of them, particularly if there was a reward promised in the near future like a trip to the park, favourite thing for tea, etc.

The job of parents, and grandparents to a point, is to educate children in social behaviour and skills. Not doing that for DS then your parents blaming him and you excusing him is not helping to give him the skills he needs to develop in life

At 9 I had books to read if we went to the pub. It was utterly fucking boring otherwise. I talked to people if they talked to me but otherwise I read my books

I think he was pretty rude.

And I don't think that's unusual for a 9 year old boy
It would irk me too if my mum said that ( and she would have !) but I think she was right.

Don't overthink it. Everyone has a bad day every now and then

If I am ever a grandparent I want to see my grandchildren happy and having fun, with smiles on their faces, being creative, learning and living.
I feel sorry for those parents who think destroying their children's individuality by turning them into sheep that can sit still, bored senseless for hours.

I can't think what life choices being good at being bored will help with, stamp collecting, bird watching, fishing?

I don't see an issue with children quietly entertaining themselves with toys in the company of adults. Technology (tablets) are something that get some people more tetchy, but in the context of all day sitting in a car/ pub/ house, a short time on a tablet amongst other entertainment isn't a big issue. He's quietly entertained himself, and hasn't put demands on you or the others.

Adult conversation can be dull. As an adult, I can end up zoning out when ILs go in depth into the lives of people I don't know. Background noise and multiple conversations make it worse as there is a lot of effort and concentration involved in following a line of conversation (I have issues processing sounds.) At Christmas, my family had a huge get-together (a rare event!). My older teenage cousin engrossed herself in her phone, socially isolated from the younger children and older adults. She was sociable as a child, and I'm sure she'll be fine in a couple of years, but for now she's in an awkward transition zone when away from her age group. Criticising her for being rude would not help her integration skills.

Punishing him would only be counterproductive. It may be helpful to have a gentle chat about coping strategies such as lip reading (helpful for both eye contact issues and following indistinct speech). It's not an issue worth "going on and on" about, and your DM's expectations seem unrealistic.

I haven't read the entire thread (although have up to about page 6), but here's my twopenn'orth.

I have a niece who is 12.5. She is in incredibly shy, more so in the last 5 years or so. We see them at least once a month, usually for a pub breakfast or lunch & she never says a word to anyone. This is among parents, grandparents & us, so people she has known all her life. But she is allowed & enabled to do it. She takes a phone and/or Ipad with her everywhere & is glued to it, except when eating. No effort is made by her parents to suggest she puts it away. I find this incredibly rude and, quite honestly, I have now stopped trying to ask her about things she is interested in because I never get more than a grunt & can never get her to look up to answer questions anyway.

By contrast, I am a bit old-fashioned & do not allow my DC anything at a meal table. If we are somewhere where they provide colouring sheets or there is a play area I will allow them to do this, but encourage them to engage adults eg Grandad will help you draw an apple or similar. My Dses are 8, 5 & nearly 3 but we have always done this with them. The 5-year old does have suspected ASC but he still chats to adults, just is perhaps a little repetitive on certain topics DH & I are also on alert in these situations to either ease conversation along or eg encourage DC to help with drinks or take them to the loo if they need a break.

In somebody else's home, the responsibility still lies with the parent to help the child engage, I'm afraid. It is hard work, but it's all part of being a parent.

OP mentioned that she was going through a divorce; this is usually very upsetting for all concerned.

No doubt OP and her DH are doing their best to keep it calm and friendly, but it is very difficult to handle things perfectly in such a stressful situation, so the children are probably feeling anxious and insecure, and in my experience the worry tends to fall hardest on the eldest child.

OP mentioned that DS1used to be outgoing and talkative, but has changed; not surprising if he was sensing that his home is breaking up. Can a 9-year-old be expected to make small talk when he's (possibly) crying inside?

My youngest is 7 and I instantly do get the waiter to bring over the compulsory crayons and quiz things you generally get in child friendly places or she gets ants in pants pretty quick much unlike my older dd. Every child is different. You get so harshly judged on mn sometimes. Sounds like normal family politics to me. You sound like a caring mum and also someone who thinks about your relatives feelings. My best advice is not to ask for opinions on mn and stick to the friendly, funny threads on here. Talk to a friend who knows you and your kids maybe ? ☕️

CherryChasingDotMuncher: No, no jazz hands needed. Just not being pig ignorant would be a start. No need for constant 'engagement', just basic politeness.

I'd have taken him out of the situation and spoken with him. If I had been the adult and the child had behaved like this, I'd have made an effort a couple of times but then more or less ignored him. Very rude.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them.

I think YABabitU ... this part of your OP really stood out to me, I was a shy child, I would always have a book and would escape to read at any opportunity because I felt overwhelmed in public settings, but I was still expected to be polite.

Your son is making it hard for anyone to converse with him - he turns his back, makes it hard for people to hear him when he does speak to them (especially as your aunt is elderly and I assume probably needs people to speak up) and then doesn't make it clear when he's taking to people. Yet if people don't answer him or acknowledge when he speaks to them, then he doesn;t make the effort to continue. You can't hold a conversation with someone like that and I don't blame people for giving up.

You can't blame others for not realising when they are being spoken to if he doesn't make an effort to try and make that clear, and if they don't hear his responses and he doesn't repeat himself, how can they hold a conversation?

You can't change other people but you can coach your son on how to communicate better - turning your back n anyone is rude, so you need to tell him not to do that, and at least face the general direction of people you are socialising with, so even if you're not participating in conversation you are still part of the group and show courtesy. I hate eye contact, but ask anyone I speak to and they;d think I had held their gaze because I was taught how to fake it (focus on the point between their eyebrows, or their nose or forehead so your eyes are in the right general direction but they can't tell you're not focussing on their eyes). Teach him to speak up or perhaps use people's name to start the sentence so they know he's addressing them etcetc

Ultimately your son was rude, unintentional or not, he's old enough to understand that even if you're not enthusiastic about something you should be polite as a bare minimum. But use this as a learning tool to help him improve his social skills so it doesn't happen again.

CherryChasingDotMuncher: No, no jazz hands needed. Just not being pig ignorant would be a start. No need for constant 'engagement', just basic politeness.

Calling a 9yo pig ignorant sorry explain again how concealing boredom is polite? I find it baffling that anyone would tell a child 'I don't care if you're bored, but if you are, don't show it'. Do we really wanna go back to the "children should be seen and not heard" days?

A 'pig ignorant' nine year old struggling to find common ground with an aging relative, despite a couple of attempts? Really trifle?

Hi OP, sorry you are getting a bashing. I was painfully shy as a child and hated having to speak to older relatives, I was polite but would escape as soon as I could.

11 year old DS is similar, when we take him abroad to visit relatives, he mainly can't understand what they say even if they speak English as it is heavily accented and they often don't get what he says. He hates it, he will put up with it but I know he hates it even if he has never actually said that to me. I tend to have him in the group for a bit then excuse him and let him go do something else, if anyone asks him anything I usually have to repeat it for him before he can answer.

As for the phrase 'pig ignorant' in this situation - I think someone needs to wobble their head a bit and stop being so obnoxious about a young child

It's a life skill cherry. 9 is old enough to learn it.

I haven't read the full thread OP but from your first post, no I don't think your son was being deliberately rude. It was much like my eldest son could be at that age and my daughter to an extent too as she can be very shy but, once she's comfortable and been allowed to come out of her shell, she's different again. My son is now about to turn 12 and at secondary school and he has a new found confidence and once again enjoys being with adults and chatting. He's gone full circle and I'm sure your son will too. It's all phases IMO and I think elderly relatives have a tendency to be short sighted and judgmental about these things. I feel for you as I too have endured this sort of occasion with my children and you do feel conscious, like you're being judged and they're being judged when, as I say, it's phases. My youngest (almost 6) would also have been the one holding court here, in fact I've seen relatives roll their eyes about him before now purely because he is so chatty and never shuts up so I often feel like I can't win! I also think that although iPads are frowned upon by many especially the older generation, they are a sign of the times and one of your parents in particular could have gone and sat with your son and shown an interest and asked him about what he was doing on there even if they didn't really understand it. I know my son would have always opened up and been happy to explain his games etc, it works both ways. Perhaps explain this, kindly but firmly, to your mum but also have a chat with your son about expectations mad and how to behave in these situations .

Sorry about the random 'mad' in last sentence!

Meant to add that yes I would also have taken him out of the situation and had a quiet word at the time, I've had to do that myself before now once or twice!

It's funny all the pearl clutching at a tablet.

Yet we had books, or handheld games or puzzles etc. Like I said before I was expected to quietly entertain myself rather than join in adult conversation. We could join in if we chose but unless our conversation was relevant we were sent away!

Yes I grew up in the 70's youarenot and this was expected of us too, my dad often said 'children should be seen and not heard' and he was a fairly modern guy for his time! iPads, IMO, are today's handheld puzzles/games and the like we had back then. They can be all consuming sure but if the older generation want to engage with the younger and vice versa there has to be effort on both sides rather than a general looking down the nose type attitude. I'm not saying that's what necessarily happened in the OP's instance but it's certainly happened to me before now and makes these type of occasions extremely awkward and stressful.

Sorry but he does sound rude. My most shy child would never turn his back. Sorry op. I don't mean to sound harsh but you do sound as though you are making excuses.

If my dc did this I wouldn't be too bothered if it was a one off occurrence. Sounds like a dull boring claustrophobic day for the kid. However if it happened regularly I would have 'gentle nurturing' words. I think people are being a bit harsh on the op. Perhaps all the nay sayers are better parents, but I doubt it.

OP I wouldn't even bother posting on this thread again, many of the replies are nonsensical.