To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

9 years old? So you do realise he's not a toddler. Tell him to turn around. He was rude!

Why do ppl post in Aibu then get offended when told they are. Your child was rude and you are full of excuses. 9 is too old to behave like that. The old people smell comment is utterly ridiculous and I'm sorry but I would never give mine a tablet when out or we have guests. If that's harsh sorry but you asked opinions that's mine.

BeaveredBadgered: "Pig ignorant" is a common saying, I don't see the problem. He was being ignorant.

Lots of crazy judgy comments tonight 😜Must be a full moon

See you call it judgy but I don't know a single person who would think the behaviour was ok. Maybe in a much younger child you could excuse it a little.

As a parent to a DS the same age with ASD his actions scream "I am struggling with this!" to me, even if he is NT.

One thing to suggest for the future is to look at someone's nose when talking with them. It's almost impossible to distinguish from eye contact but is much less painful and overwhelming. My DS says doing this stops the overwhelming physical uncomfortableness and allows him to concentrate on the conversation.

I tried to stop activities at the table, but my DPs felt I was being too strict with DS. Now my DM will often provide something to entertain DS whilst we wait for food and talk about boring grown up stuff. The tablet comes with us too as he sometimes needs it to distract him if he's overloaded. But as he gets older he's using it less.

We're lucky that most relatives get how to deal with him - small talk about school, ask him about space/aliens/robots or YouTube and then he'll go off and play. But I had one relative recently took it upon themselves to chastise him for making a mess of my DMs house and trying to force him to apologise which resulted in him going silent and supposedly 'rude'. I wasn't there to intervene (at work) but my DM put her foot down and said he was fine, he was playing and being quiet and well behaved, she was very unhappy with our relative for thinking a visiting child should have just sat there and listened to relative moan on about the football and their health problems.

Back when I was young I was always attached to a book. One elderly relative once remarked that in her day children wouldn't have been allowed a book in the presence of adults. My DF quipped that times changed and next time I could borrow his laptop. Her house had a very old fashioned set up and she still receive guests in 'the parlour' complete with uncomfortable overstuffed chairs. It was much more fun when my cousins visited too as we were turfed out into the garden with their ayah and played all sorts of games, but there was the time when they didn't bring the ayah and instead we locked ourselves in the dining room and drank a bottle of champagne. I was not a lot older than your DS and would say that was far ruder behaviour!

Ignore your Mum OP. I'm lucky mine is understanding and hands on (and tells me I'm too strict), but chastising him isn't the way to go. I'd suggest speaking to him about what is expected next time, include the nose tip, intervene and force them to pay attention to him if they don't hear "DM, Johnny wanted to speak to you. Big voice now Johnny...!" Push the follow ups if none are forthcoming. Do it 3 times. If interaction on their part is still like getting blood from a stone then praise him for doing all that he can, tell him you're so proud of his effort and reward as you see fit. If DM complains again, remind her you tried to facilitate, but they chose not to interact with him and you are proud of his effort.

Reward his good behaviours, gently remind him not to do the undesirable ones. My DS is very concerned not to appear rude and works hard on his social skills, rewarding him for the things I want to see again is the best way for us (as for most kids with spectrum/sensory conditions).

cherrychasing talks a lot of sense.
9yo aren't generally confident at making small talk with people they don't know. 3 hrs in the car followed by a couple of hrs in the pub?
I would be happy if the kids entertained themselves with a book or some colouring. Rude behaviour would in my opinion be shouting out, clattering plates/cutlery, getting in and out of seat etc..
Kids that age generally need some sort of fresh air/stretch out of the legs. I think it's a shame your parents didn't make more of an effort.

I don't think your son was deliberately rude. It must have been very upsetting for you to hear your mother go on about his behaviour.

It is something to work on, though - but you already know that. Learning how to behave socially even when he feels uncomfortable will be a life skill that will stand him in good stead forever. Many adults struggle with this...although they don't seem to be on this thread. :-)

Keep an eye on the turning his back no eye contact OP - my nephew has mild aspergers and this type of behaviour was an early indicator. He's done very well and is at uni living with his girlfriend so not a cause for alarm. But - a label can help families empathise with unusual social behaviour

*Lots of crazy judgy comments tonight 😜Must be a full moon^

It's always a full moon on Mumsnet

Yes there is a lot of judginess going on here!

Good manners are important, but some things are more important, such as compassion.

OP and her children are going through a family break-up; it is probably distressing for them, and she should be able to look to her DPs for some support, but instead of hugs it seems she is getting lectures.

Let's cut them a bit of slack for godssake! Has MN gone back to the 1950s?

I have only read a few of the responses but just wanted to say that I think you are not necessarily being unreasonable - there is so little allowance made for children who may be introverted or going through difficult times etc. You know your child and his situation best and if you think that in these circumstances he should get a pass on his behaviour then don't punish him but perhaps talk to him about what is going on and how he is feeling about it etc and look at ways of helping him develop more coping mechanisms.

Wow there is a lot of judginess here. I'd agree that on the face of it is is rude behaviour so either something to work on or an area to understand that he has difficulty with. There's no need for the nastiness of some of the replies though. Seems to go like this with threads sometimes, once the thread is leaning in a certain direction people escalate it and egg each other on.

That whole day sounds utterly awful! I feel panicky at the thought of it. At that age I would have felt huge anxiety, trapped and uncomfortable. I still feel anxiety about being "stuck" in social situations. I am an introvert and need time out from being with other people.

As a child I managed it by always having a book to read. Feel sorry for your DS.

Three hours in a warm comfortable car. Scarcely a hardship! At least he wasn't standing at a bus stop or on a draughty railway platform. I think it was rude to be using a tablet, and what on earth is wrong with a child being bored for a few hours? And, by the way, what was the 7 year old doing all the time?

3 hours in a warm comfortable car my arse! Also its more like 6 hours and not everyone is good at travelling. I soon lose the will to live if I have to sit in the back seat for a long journey and it takes me a while to get over a car journey even as an adult.
One of the best things about being an adult is that I can say 'no' to such a day out like that.

I was a shy child so I do sympathise, but 'shy' is not an excuse for 'rude'.

I would expect a nine-year-old not to need anything to occupy them during a pub meal, and I would absolutely not let them sit with their back to people. I would also tell them that they needed to turn around and speak up when talking to an elderly relative.

I think when you were all back at the relative's house it was actually fine for him to play on a tablet or whatever, as obviously there is a limit to how much he is going to be able to join in with adult conversation and I think it's fine for kids to play while adults are chatting about stuff a kid can't make much contribution to.

The whole thing about him competing with his sibling is a bit weird - all siblings are competitive but he should be able to cope with his brother interacting with people without feeling gloomy.

You can't punish social anxiety out of someone.

This. Exactly. Ffs

Long thread not read it all. Read some! My kids are 9 and 6 and I often taking colouring when out for a meal not a tablet though. To me colouring seems fine but tablet seems rude!

To me colouring seems fine but tablet seems rude!

But why? Both result in a child being occupied, what makes a non-electronic acceptable but an electronic not?

My DD is only 3 but I take the iPad out when we go for meals and she always plays on the colouring app. To me this is colouring but with less crap and mess, no difference to actual colouring with paper and crayon.

He's not all bad

He's not one bit bad OP and don't let anyone here make you think he is. He sounds lovely. He was a young boy in a difficult social situation who despite obviously feeling uncomfortable did try to make an effort to engage and gave up when it wasn't reciprocated. Yes, he needs guidance to better navigate such situations in the future but he didn't do anything which warrants punishment or shaming and some of the replies on this thread are utterly ridiculous.

You can't 'punish' social anxiety out of someone.

This.