To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

Like what sanctions though? This is worth no more than a brief firm word about manners in social situations. Don't let your mum (or MN) influence you into thinking anything more is necessary OP.

I think in situations like this there has to be some give and take IFYSWIM.

Yes, he shouldn't have turned his back on the elderly relative, but if he was struggling to converse with her, then someone else should have stepped in and joined the conversation and gave your DS pointers to help him. Maybe he felt awkward having to raise his voice if she couldn't hear him.

I still bring things to occupy DS when we are visiting relatives and he is 12. DS is an only child and on many of these visits he is the only child there. Visits will also involve a long car journey too.

I expect him to join in on some conversations and to certainly respond to questions, but I also think that it is unfair to expect him to sit quietly with nothing else to do whilst the adults talk about things that are of no interest to him.

My parents are both elderly and are not in good health, so when we visit them much of the conversation centres around their needs and medical requirements. Whilst having these conversations I am happier if DS does plug himself into his tablet, so he doesn't have to hear the ins and outs of their illnesses.

If we go out for a meal, again he may have a magazine or tablet to look at, for some of the time, but has to be put away when eating.

I try to encourage DS to take things that the relative would be interested in e.g. a book on cars to discuss with my DF. Also DS's scout group and school both have Facebook pages where they post photos of various activities. I will log into these so DS can show them to relatives and discuss the various things he has been up to.

One of my happiest memories of visiting my great Nan is playing with a marble solitaire game she had, whilst all the adults chatted around me. I had never seen a game like that and it kept me amused for hours.

I hate this very modern idea that every moment of every day has to be entertaining, and if it isn't then it justifies the child being allowed to opt out of the activity. Yes, sometimes talking to elderly relatives is dull. Of course it is. But these are the people who buy the birthday presents, help out with the childcare, provide the parents with emotional support, actually feel love for the children - it is reasonable for children to be expected to make polite conversation for a sustained period (perhaps not 4 hours!). It is very selfish to simply say, what's in it for them? What if we all said that?

Just because you don't think a child should be forced to converse doesn't mean that you also think they should be entertained every moment of every day!

I would have given my mother short shrift had she said "what is wrong with" my child. She said it before and believe you me, it didn't end well. It really is a shit thing to say to someone or about anyone.

It sounds as though you weren't taught social skills by your parents, who don't appear to have any themselves. So it was up to you to learn them and now teach them to your children. Anyway, I think you've learnt an important lesson - to prep your children first.

Your ds is 9 not 19. So I agree, it's very much for the adults to engage with him if he finds himself embarrassed and unable to participate in the adult social niceties.

A nice chat with him would be good to work the situation through. And best to make sure your parents don't get a chance to say anything to him. They don't sound well equipped themselves.

I've even been known to take homework along for DS to do on some of these visits, so I am certainly not in the he needs to be entertained every moment of every day camp

Dd is 9 and shy. I get round this kind of thing by saying "dd come and tell great grandma about your horse riding or our holiday etc" and whisper (remember to look at her and speak clearly as she struggles to hear).

Wow, I really hope you're not paying too much attention to all the nega-trons and naysayers on this thread op, especially the 'experts' claiming he must have some kind of undiagnosed problem.
I was really awkward around adults as a child and lived in my own world a little bit. I'm very confident now I'm older and will talk to anyone, I just don't feel the need to shout about it or sit and chat about boring drivel with everyone.
Also you make it sound like you don't really like your parents very much. Maybe your son feels the same?
I have four dcs - 3 very gregarious and one much quieter and less likely to chat to adults. I've brought them up all exactly the same so to where does that leave all the people claiming it's somehow your fault as a parent. Children are not little robots of one another waiting to be programmed by adults, they are individuals and we should treat them as such.

sounds as though you weren't taught social skills by your parents

Social skills that should be left in the last century. I taught my DC it is more honest and fair to try and engage with people but if they are not interested at that moment then excuse yourself and go and do something that is of value.

Sitting still for hours on end doing nothing for no reason is a complete waste of everyone's time and was used as a punishment when I was growing up.

Being well mannered and able to talk to elders is very important to dh and I. I have had occasions when a dc wasn't responding to an adult's attempts to talk to them and I dealt with it there and then eg look at Auntie so and so when she's talking to you. I also point out that relatives are often really pleased to spend time with them as we live far from family and they need to make an effort.
In contrast, whenever we see my dns they are often sitting on tablets or Xbox when we arrive and are not told to get off and say hello properly. However I make an effort to engage them in conversation as I know they are shy and I want them to relax.
I wouldn't punish your ds but I do think you need to have higher expectations for his behaviour.

I have five children, four of them would never act that way but one would, my 10 year old.

She is an introvert and she really dislikes socialising for long. She finds it difficult and if too many conversations are going on around her she gets frustrated and zones out. She can come across as quite rude and I always have to speak to her about it. I worry about it a lot. I do not believe she is on the spectrum at all. Her dad finds socialising painful and was the same as a child but as an adult you would have no idea he is struggling, he has perfected being polite and charming when inside he wants to run away.

Forcing her into making conversation when she feels like that is painful for her. I leave her to it and try to bring her out slowly. Thankfully, my family knows what she is like and don't view it as rudeness but her friends certainly have.

She isn't turning her back because she is being rude, she does it because it's the only way she feels she can get away from a group of people talking which she finds painful. She also clams up sometimes if people ask her questions and you can see the look of pain in her face.

OP I think those who are not being sympathetic have not had to regularly put their DC in the car for a long journey to visit relatives. You and your have DS have my utmost sympathy. A gentle suggestion of a different way of engaging with the elderly relatives and an explanation of their expectations of conversation etc might make it easier all round in the long term. No punishment though. He just needs to understand how it makes the others feel, and that is just learning, and part of growing up.

There is nothing to suggest that the older DS is shy. OP says that as he has got older he has become less chatty.....

Four hours is a long time to concentrate for a nine year old. They are used to concentrating in an hour to 90 minute slots at school, and we were taught, back in the dark ages that it is good practice to get them up and moving around a bit.

Have you found out why he would not look at them and why he turned his back repeatedly? You could work through how he thinks it makes the other person feel when he does this.

Also the adults are adults and need to learn to draw the child out into conversation and not sulk if a child is being a child. some kids are better at it. perhaps he thought that dc2 was talking enough and there was nothing else to say.

I definitely wouldn't punish him. He'll struggle even more in future if he thinks he'll be told off for not having the communication and social skills to deal with a situation.

I occasionally felt shy and embarrassed around older relatives, not knowing what to say. I'd turn away in the hope no one would speak to me so I wouldn't have to worry about feeling flummoxed about what to say back.

I'm now an averagely confident adult who enjoys socialising and can usually find something in common with everyone I meet.

He's at a tricky age of being much more self aware than a little child but not ready/equipped with the skills to chat confidently with adults.
Encourage debate and conversation at home and praise him when he contributes well to a conversation.

She finds it difficult and if too many conversations are going on around her she gets frustrated and zones out. She can come across as quite rude and I always have to speak to her about it.

I do this! It's a case of too much input - I can't 'filter out' the other conversations and focus solely on the one I'm involved in. It often just sounds like indiscriminate noise, or I catch snippets of all the conversations around me and can't follow any of them, let alone participate. As an adult in social situations I'll usually excuse myself to take 5 minutes in the bathroom, or help out in the kitchen (fewer people in there!) - any plausible reason to get away from the noise for a while. As a child I didn't know how to deal with it and got very frustrated. It's definitely ASD-related with me, but it's perfectly possible for an NT child to have particular traits yet not be autistic.

U2HasTheEdge it sounds as if you and your family are really supportive of your daughter's personality and needs. Hopefully she'll find coping strategies that work for her!

I think as he is 9 and they are adults I would expect them to be better able to deal with the situation than him. He's still learning how to interact in social situations, they have many decades of practice on him. I agree as adults they should take the lead on their interactions with him if it isn't going well. You can't be expected to helicopter parent their relationship and they shouldn't put all the responsibility back onto the child.
Having a whinge about it after the fact isn't going to help!

I think a shy, NT 9 year old could find this a challenging situation. Being cooped up in a car for three hours previously doesn't help. The adults involved complaining about it, blaming him and wanting their needs attended to speaks volumes.

Love your son. Guide him gently. Ignore the haters.

Kids grow and change all the time. A lot of things are all about development and maturity. Trying to force/"teach" children to behave in a certain way too soon often backfires.

OP I think you have had a really hard time on here. I can't believe people object to a 9yo and 7yo having quiet toys at a table to play with after a 3 hour car journey. I mean what a thoroughly boring day for a child to go 3 hours in a car, a pub lunch making small talk with people 7 times their age and then sitting quietly in an elderly person's flat, before another 3 hour journey. And all this time expected to lead a conversation. That would bore the shit out of me and I'm 30! I suspect everyone saying their child would be perfectly behaved and enjoy this are telling porkies exaggerating.

How sad people have such high expectations of a 9yo whose parents are going through a divorce.

Anyway I just wanted to say I don't think YABU. 'Rude' is too strong a word IMO. We're all allowed off days, children included. Taking them on that kind of day out will always be a risk in terms of what mood they're in, and I think grandparents often forget what children are like on a day-to-day basis.

My elderly uncle visited us last year with his son, who was 10yo at the time (uncle is an older dad). The boy was spending the full day at ours and had no toys or anything, me and uncle would just be chewing the cud inbetween cups of tea and within about 10 minutes I could see how utterly bored my cousin was. We were mainly talking about my late dad, to expect a 10yo to join in a conversation about someone they never met for a whole day is ludicrous and i soon gave cousin my iPad to play with. No point letting the boy suffer for the sake of being 'polite'.

OP I was that shy child and my mum put huge pressure on me to charm the socks off elderly family members. she would tell them what a lovely girl I was and I really felt the need to conform to that, but actually I was terribly shy and didn't feel like talking to someone who was 86 who I'd met once as a newborn, and my mum would be furious if I didn't toe the line. It's taken a tremendous amount to undo the complex I've had about speaking to strangers, just a few years ago I wouldn't have, for example, had a lot of confidence ordering coffee in Starbucks. There's a whole other history of this but I know it stems down to my mum trying to parade me like a prized puppy and pressuring me to be a confident child when I simply wasn't.

I would be wary of making your son feel worse, he clearly had a bad day, it's not the end of the world. Maybe just be wary on the next visit, absolutely no need to publically bollock him and I'm a bit at the suggestions you should have.

Have you found out why he would not look at them and why he turned his back repeatedly
I bet he didn't realise he was doing it.

Also, this

Why is it considered polite to force children to sit still facing any (elderly) relative for 2-4 hours straight, listening to adult conversation that is of zero interest or relevance, waiting for that one comment which might never come, "so how are you doing at school"

I'm not of the mindset that children should always be occupied with fun, but why is making them spend a day bored off their tits considered good manners? Who is benefitting from this exactly?

OP, your DS is only nine years old, and not lunchtime entertainment for your relatives. Just because he used to be incredibly sociable, doesn't mean, he is going to carry on that way. Maybe he has become more of an introvert, and feels uncomfortable, being the centre of attention. He isn't rude at all. Tell your DM to cut him some slack, you will deal with your child, how you deem appropriate, thank you very much !
I think that you have received some pretty harsh comments here, but also some good replies.
Your Son tried to communicate with your elderly relative, but gave up, as he found it difficult.
Punishment is a word that I never associated with my DC.
By all means speak to your DS, and carry on being the kind, understanding Mummy, that he knows and loves, you may be surprised at how he was actually feeling.

I'm not of the mindset that children should always be occupied with fun, but why is making them spend a day bored off their tits considered good manners? Who is benefitting from this exactly?

I agree.

OP don't worry. The day sounded long for the kids (and you!) If they were happy and calm then no problem.