To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

Presumably if it was a 3 hour drive there and the same back you were staying there for a few hours? In which case letting a 9 y.o. have some time on a tablet is reasonable in my opinion. Being stuck in a car for that length of time is bad enough and then not being able to stretch your legs at all... I'm assuming that the adults wanted to have a good catch up and so it's not (again, in my opinion) necessarily appropriate for children to be actively participating in that conversation, certainly not the whole time i.e. once you've left the restaurant. When we were kids and went to visit GPs we'd spend part of the time in the kitchen playing cards so the adults could do the catching up to their heart's content and we wouldn't be bored rigid. And we were really well-behaved kids - positive saints compared to many kids today. Like really, really, wouldn't dare be anything else well-behaved.
If he is shy, or maybe introverted, or whatever then trying to make conversation with someone you barely know who can't hear you is really hard work. More so when you're 9. Yes he shouldn't have turned his back on her and he needs to be told about that, and yes it's probably worth explaining that sometimes you are expected to torture yourself to please other people. But in my day, it was just accepted that I was shy and didn't do conversation (I was actually autistic but they didn't know that and so went with shy instead ) - no-one thought it was rude. Turning his back aside I'm not sure what was rude, unless they're comparing him to his previous self or to his brother, both of which are wrong.

And reading your update.....you are still making excuses.

This needs to be put into perspective. He is 9. Even as an older person I would find it hard to talk to someone I had nothing in common with for hours. At 9 an old person is like an alien there is little you can converse about. My children were always made to say hello, chat for a few minutes you know the how is school, have you any friends what do you like to play etc questions that adults come out with and then they were to quietly play and not be badly behaved. Added to the fact he is at the age where is will be more aware of his inability to make small talk which as a younger child you don't you just chunter on and on. You are teaching him social niceties so explain that he should always answer when spoken to although I made mine wear headphones to stop people engaging with them. And he should not have turned away. But give him a break he is just a little boy.

But don't think it's too much to ask that adults who are supposed to love him could help a bit, rather than criticising (I mean my parents, who could make more effort if they tried).

Supposedly to love him? That's unfair and you, yet again trying to make excuses. It's not their job to coax a sulky nine year old into talking to them. It's your job to teach your child to be polite. There's a difference between shy and rude and your son was rude.

My 8 yr old is like this, but he is on the autism spectrum. It makes me feel awkward, I always try and give my son plenty of notice (1wk) this is where we are going on such and such a date, we will see xyz, they might say this to you blah blah blah. It helps him prepare for interaction iykwim. I am not saying your son has ASD by the way but maybe this sort of thing may help him for next time. I also don't think he is rude, just a boy who might find situations like this a little bit more uncomfortable than others. We are not all social butterflies.

You expected the adults to get up and go talk to your child rather than the other way around?

Er, yes. Because they are adults and therefore more experienced at socialising and could reasonably be expected to teach him the kind of behaviour that they wanted to see. I think adults, not children, should be expected to set a good example.

don't think it's too much to ask that adults who are supposed to love him could help a bit, rather than criticising (I mean my parents, who could make more effort if they tried).

I agree absolutely. My parents would have made a lot of effort in that situation and, as I said earlier, my dad would have found a way of removing them from a boring situation or found something really entertaining to do with them.

Of course you don't need to 'punish' him, but I would have a chat with him about it. He was very rude - sitting with your back to someone who is trying to talk to you is extremely rude, and I wouldn't gloss over that fact - but it sounds like that rudeness was born largely out of discomfort in a social situation, rather than any sort of mischief. So talk to him, find out what's behind it and try to come up with some strategies for the next similar occasion. Maybe you need to be the one drawing him into the conversation, rather than relying on your parents who you admit aren't very good at it?

Sorry but your post is just excusing his rudeness.
I don't see the harm in him having books or even a tablet, but that doesn't mean he stays on it the entire time and ignores the people he came to see.

My DS is 12, he is adhd, and can be super difficult. He is also shy, and introverted. He would find the situation above exceptionally difficult and wouldn't find it at all easy to make conversation. I would expect the adults to coax him if they wanted to talk, he is learning. I would talk to him if he turned his back but not sure I would punish him. It's about him understanding the effects of his actions and it all depends how used he is to old people.

Personally after a 3 hour drive, at 49 I need some time to get my head together. Straight into a pub, and then an elderly person's flat, and then another 3 hour drive home I'm surprised he wasn't crawling the walls. With nobody even trying to engage him he was probably wondering why he was there at all.

Another YABU I'm afraid. I would be embarrassed if my 10 year old had done this and I would have tried to deal with it at the time. It's not easy though, is it, but I think it's important that children learn good manners from an early age.

I wouldn't be too harsh on him though, I would just be mindful about the next time you're in a similar situation.

I also wouldn't expect the elderly people to get up and go to him.
He made his feelings quite clear, and you've made it clear to them that it was acceptable ( you had a word outside yes but they didn't know that).
Why would they go sit by him and make an effort at the house when they've been ignored all the way through?

I do think he was rude. I wouldn't have tolerated the sitting with his back to anyone and I'd have taken him quietly aside and read him the riot act. I wouldn't have allowed a tablet or figurines either. At nine, he's more than old enough to know that not everything is all about him, his needs and his feelings, it's not up to everyone else to make him constantly happy, and he needs help to start making an effort and to start thinking about others and their wants and needs as well as his.

Sorry OP, I think you're babying him and your expectations aren't nearly high enough.

Still reeling on the 'old people smell weird' comment. Good grief, the future is going to be very ugly if we're teaching children you should never have to bother with anyone you don't like the smell of.

At 9 he should be learning how to deal with these situations, he was rude, whether intentionally or not, please don't make excuses for him, you're not doing him any favours in the long run

From what you've described, it doesn't sound like your ds was deliberately rude at all. His awkwardness may have been interpreted as 'rude', but that wasn't his or your intention.

One of my children can be incredibly shy. No amount of me telling her to turn arpund, look at people when yo're speaking to them etc would help. It would distress her and everyone else, and certainly not help anyone feel more relaxed.

Tbh, it sounds like your dms issue, rather than your ds's and no he needs support to manage these tricky situations more confidently in the future, not punishment for how he ( perfectly understandably) felt.

It sounds like there's a lot going on at home?
A divorce is a major life change and perhaps that is why your ds behaved as he did? You say his personality has changed? I would imagine he is feeling quite unsure of things ATM?
He didn't know the elderly person and your parents aren't good with him?
I wouldn't have gone, tbh, but what's done is done.
Can't believe all the horrid posts on here about a nine year old child who was obviously very uncomfortable and unhappy.

Personally after a 3 hour drive, at 49 I need some time to get my head together.

Presumably, the nine year old wasn't driving, though!

I don' think talk of punishing him is helpful. But you should talk it through and explain how his behaviour was rude.

It clearly wasn't the most exciting day out for kids, but he's not a baby; 9 is old enough to have basic social skills.

if there were other factors like asd or some learning delay then it would be different but in that case I would expect your parents to know, and for you to make more suitable plans.

He was quite rude though OP. I agree too that at 9 he shouldn't need to have figures/tablet with him.

Had you told him beforehand what the day was about?

The gap between. Grandparents/elderly does get wider as children grow up - they're inhabiting two different worlds but it should have been an opportunity for him to try to engage.

Sitting sullenly or with your back to someone is rude at any age. Imagine how you might feel it when your 'old' you are sitting with a child who so obviously doesn't want to be there. It would be upsetting.

As an aside, why was a pub lunch not ideal after the drive?

Don't be so silly rumbling, no one said we didn't need to bother with old people. But don't you remember how you used to feel about them when you were very young? I remember going to visit my elderly aunt who was 100! She was like a dinosaur when I was about 7!! Children need easing into these situations, don't forget most of the time they are surrounded with people their age- not like us in the outside world, we have dealings with people of all ages!

I would have a conversation about manners but to be honest it sounds like he was just subdued and probably a bit shy and not e.g. throwing food or calling Great Aunty Mary a twat. Everyone is allowed an off day and it sounds like a long day for everyone.

Sorry OP just seen you answered my last question previously. Apologies.

Adults should set a good example

He's your child, you teach him the behaviour you expect

OP, you say your elderly reletive is lovely so I'm sure she will understand your son feeling shy or awkward. You've had a really hard time here, unfairly IMO.

When my ds1 was 10 we visited my db who we rarely see. Ds refused to come out of the car and sat listening to music. I was embarrassed and years later my db said how surly and rude he'd thought him. BUT, then his own DC went through that awkward phase and he 'got it'. Ds has gone on to grow into a charming, witty and articulate young man who will converse with anyone. And I mean anyone. So ignore DM. Perhaps if a similar situation is likely to arise have a chat with ds to discuss how he might find it easier to deal with his feelings.

And finally, get hold of a copy of yesterday's Times magazine and read the utterly hilarious account of Giles Coran, the restaurant critic of trying and failing to get his DC to behave in restaurants. Maybe sent it to your DM with a note about quiet behaviour not being the worst thing a child can throw at you.