To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

Do they have much experience of being out for a meal? We hadn't had much at those ages because money was tight, and when there was more cash, we started going out to dinner. Then, we were allowed our Beano annuals (!!) but in between courses only, and our parents had told us how going out for a meal would work, when we could read and when. It was to ease us into eating out nicely.

So maybe that helps

Seriously? No wonder he has no manners. I'd have torn mine a new one for that, there and then.

You sound.... Delightful Starry.

Do you have children starry?

I wouldn't punish him, but I'd have a chat about why his behaviour was rude and what was expected next time.

This. I was the same as a child and I have since been diagnosed with social anxiety (I'm awaiting the barrage of "you're just shy" comments, never fear). If he was clearly uncomfortable, you need to have a chat about it and how it can appear to people who don't realise.

Being shy is not rude, it's a disability. Attacking someone for being shy is as offensive as having a go at a child born with no legs because they use a wheelchair.

No, it isn't and no, it isn't.

My 8 year old would have been tired after a three hour car journey

Yeah I do and they would not be allowed to turn their backs on people and bury their heads in a tablet when someone is speaking to them. At 9 that is way old enough to know better and I'd have been mortified.

gran we are fellow grans and I completely agree with your post

I'm surprised at the responses on page 1, I don't think it sounds like he was particularly rude. Yes it would have been great if he'd been chattier, but his there are times when I as an adult am just not in the mood for hours of polite dinner chit chat with certain people and really have to force myself into it. I'm not surprised a 9 year old isn't always up to the task, and it's not like he actually said anything rude or did anything awful, he was just withdrawn.

I wouldn't punish him. I'd maybe talk to him about looking people in the eye when you speak to him, and explaining that with family members sometimes you have to make an effort even when you're not in the mood.

Mumsnet never fails to astonish me:

Personally after a 3 hour journey in a motor vehicle that might or might not be quite cramped, at 49 I need some time to get my head together.

How do these snowflakes function in a job / family / daily life?? "Well, we're here at the beach, kids, but Mummy needs her 'special time' before we start having fun..."

Being shy is a fairly common personality trait, not a disability. And as with all types of personalities, part of parenting is guiding your child to understand that basic manners shouldn't be dictated by personality type.

If the child had been the other way, over bearing and dominating the conversation, I would be saying the same thing- the parent shouldn't punish the child, but teach them how to behave in social situations so as not to discomfort others.

It's a very individualistic trend to believe the world should adapt to whatever tendencies your child has. Far more empowering for them to teach them that there is absolutely nothing wrong with their personality type- be it extrovert/introvert - but that we all should modulate our behaviour in certain situations.
If this was a much younger child It would make more sense, but by 9 you'd expect to be quite a long way along this learning process

I was raised to perform constantly for grandparents and elderly relatives.

I now have BPD.. (but maybe that's only part of the story)

You should tell him that it can be difficult being 9 and meeting people he doesn't know well. Let him know he should try and relax and give the oldies a bit of patience.

I have social anxiety and I would have been like this at 9, not known what to say and felt very awkward and embarrassed. I manage fine now. It's not very fair of your Mum to complain when she didn't bother to engage him herself. I'd just say to her he's shy and they need to help him become more comfortable speaking in that kind of environment. I wouldn't tell him off.

People who disapprove of taking toys/colouring books for 6/7 year olds are welcome to take my two out for a meal sometime and see how that goes!! Not all kids are capable of sitting nicely and calmly in a restaurant for a couple of hours, even without SN.

My kids would have been all over the place wiggling and on the floor etc at that age with nothing to distract them, and the more we expected them to behave and told them off the more like a pressure cooker they would get. They do have sensory issues and some social anxiety that they are learning to cope with as they get older - but your children sound amazingly well behaved tbh. It's up to adults to engage children as well, we had a relative who made no effort then made sarky comments and tried to force my son to speak and ask for certain things. Reduced my son to tears at 13 so we stopped visiting for a while as far as I'm concerned it's bullying shy children and if family are that way inclined towards my children then I'm not putting the kids through it. My children are now older and cope a lot better in social situations. I wouldn't tell your son off but I would tell your mother that they have to make more effort too.

posts like this make me sad. My daughter is 9 (nearly 10) and would be like this and these posts make me even more aware of how others feel about this kind of thing. She is diagnosed on the autistic spectrum so we know why she has these difficulties but she doesn't have a label around her neck so to most of the public she would just be seen as rude :(

OP I would talk to your son a little about how he felt and what would help him next time. Maybe he could take something specifically to show the relatives (photos or something he has made etc) to help him have an opening in to a conversation.

That's a good suggestion luggage. TBF if the OPs son has ASD then you would assume she'd have told her parents.

Many NT kids will have some degree of shyness and awkwardness around adults- particularly one they see only rarely. So this is far more likely than an actual disability.

Whatever the op can do to ease the situation is obviously helpful, but above all talking and guiding him. To just ignore it lays him open to feeling awkward next time the situation arises. Children don't develop resilience by being punished inappropriately or by their behaviour being brushed under the carpet when it's clearly not been great.

Why jump to conclusions about ASD? My youngest has it and the OP's child sounds just like my eldest (non ASD) child. Can't you just be shy, a bit awkward and socially inept at 9 without suggestions of a life long social communication disorder??

YANBU

A lot of Munmnetters dont seem to spare the rod and treat their children as objects rather than human beings. Did anyone ask DC if he wanted a 3 hour car trip, followed by 2 hours in a pub, then 2 hours in a flat entertaining an elderly woman (whom he probably doesn't know or like much) with stimulating conversation as if he was some sort of indentured court jester.

Its perfectly normal for a 9 year old to go on a tablet, its bloody great he even managed to stay in the room playing quietly. I dont blame him for turning away, he is a kid and sometimes old people do have an overpowering smell, dont say anything interesting and can be very aloof.

Give the kids a break and maybe leave them at home with father next time so they can enjoy their weekend.

I've said way up thread that I intend to talk to him about it (though I might make it more of a general chat, rather than pulling him up on something that was a week ago) and will try and better prepare him for the next visit. I love the idea of taking an object of some sort. I'm not going to ignore it at all, I just don't agree that he's been bad.

Also, someone said at 9 he should be well along this journey by now, but as I said in my OP, he hasn't been shy all his life and, in fact, isn't shy in other situations, so I haven't been dealing with this with him for years. In fact, I have just remembered one occasion when he was about 6 when he went out of his way to chat to my dad about one of his interests that was of no interest to ds himself. I remember thinking then that he was being the more adult of the two at the time. Shame my dad never really reciprocates.

Wish I could talk to ex about this and find out if he is like it with his relatives, but he won't speak to me anymore.

As a kid I used to be taken along to visit elderly great aunt every now and again, who lived about an hour and a half away.

We'd go out to lunch (no distractions for me) and I would actually probably say very little of my own back as children were seen and not heard, but I would very much have been expected to answer questions.

Then we would go back to her flat. There were no toys there and no TV. I could sometimes read the newspaper (Sunday People - very exciting as we didn't have that sort of paper at home!) and she had a miniature set of playing cards so I could play endless rounds of Patience.

So I actually don't see anything wrong with the OP's son having his tablet - that's perfectly fine. But she needs to work on his behaviour when out for a meal. The back-turning is not on and he needs to speak nicely when spoken to.

Nanny makes an interesting point. Thinking of it, life was much easier for shy kids in the days when children were expected to be seen, not heard. You could get away with a polite but muttered greetings and concise answers to questions put to you by adults, but any failure to initiate a conversation would just be seen as a sign that you had been well brought up. In my country, we also were taught to curtsey/bow at greeting which was easily done even by the most tongue-tied individual. I miss them days...

He certainly shouldn't be punished but you need to have a chat with him about how to behave in these situations before the next visit. I wouldn't let him play on an ipad or have any other distraction in future either as this can leave a bad impression . I wouldn't bother saying anything now though and would leave it for when you next visit. If it is someone you don't see that often he may have grown out of being quiet anyway.

Oh I wasn't saying op son may have ASD, just that the comments all make me super aware of what the general expectations of this age group are.

Other things we do that help when out here are to take games my kids can play quietly either together or with an interested grown up, books, drawing stuff etc (though given people think using a tablet is rude I don't know if the same could be said for these?). My thinking is that the child could then draw pictures as gifts, tell adults about the story they are reading or actively engage in a game with anyone willing to play with them so whilst it occupies the child it can also be a gateway into conversations too.

I would have found that day difficult aged 9.
The long car journey would have left me feeling restless and uncomfortable, then going into a busy pub environment to 'perform' socially.

In fact as an adult I would still find that really difficult! I would be exhausted and grouchy after that day. Over the years I've learnt how to manage my emotions better, so I can (I think) look engaged and interested if needs be, but that is a skill that takes time to learn, and doesn't come naturally to many. After a long car journey, long sit down lunch making conversation, hours in a small flat again making conversation, then long car journey back I would want to SCREAM. I wouldn't of course, and as an adult I would know how to politely get some space - offer to help in the kitchenvor make a round of tea, get some fresh air for a headache, show an interest in the host's photos or bookshelf and spend a few mins alone recharging.

As an adult you also have more scope to adapt the plan to your preferences. So if I was going on a 3 hour drive I would definitely arrange to arrive early to have a walk before a long pub lunch, rather than go straight in.

I definitely wouldn't tell him off, but I would talk to him about how he felt, and how he could do things differently next time.

Al