To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

I think we all get that a 3 hour drive to visit grandparents isn't the most exciting thing, and we also get that many, probably most, kids go through a stage of being awkward/ shy. Christ, we've all been 9 years old.

However I don't get how anyone is making excuses for turning your back on someone who is speaking to you. The OP admitted that her son was actually refusing to even turn round so the adults could hear what he said. That's rude. Why sugar coat it?
No one expected him to be the life and soul of the party. He didn't need to chat away non stop. But to actually turn your back on people is rude.

If you want to support your son, OP, then talk it over. Don't punish, just explain how it makes people feel when someone turns their back, doesn't respond, or responds in a manner which can't be heard. Teach him to handle social situations rather than make excuses for him- it's far kinder to him.

What a miserable day god the children. I'd struggle with 3 hours driving, lunch and small talk followed by 3 hours back.

Were the topics of conversation things that children are able to join in on? We have s few standards which can be used to keep them engaged over lunch before they have a run around or a play on a tablet - holidays, animals, whether to be a superhero or super villain... and encourage the children to join in with general conversation.

If the conversation is all about house prices, diy and relatives who we've never met, I'd expect the children to sit quietly and preoccupy themselves with something else while I pretend to look interested.

Wait, wait, wait. People aren't judging a child. They are giving their opinions on his behaviour. What would you prefer people to do Services just agree with the OP even if we disagree?

Fwiw OP, I don't think punishing him is the right course of action. But I do think you need to talk to him about appropriate behaviour. You said yourself you said to him to turn round but he then turned his back again: that's really not on.

It sounds like this is just part of your ds and that he finds social situations difficult. I think the fact that you have wondered about asd in the past confirms this. I think you might be better off focusing on this. If necessary tell your family that your ds is v reserved and struggles socially so that expectations can be reduced.

I think your mother is making it a far bigger deal than it was to be honest. As for activities at lunch I can't get worked up about it and I don't know anyone in my large family and friend circle who would either except my parents who would certainly make this kind of fuss and nit pick and moan about not particularly problematic behaviour and that's why we don't go there very often.

Some of the judgmental replies on here are laughable.

And no, it doesn't sound like a fun day for the kids, but not having fun does not excuse being rude.

Presumably, the nine year old wasn't driving, though!

No, I didn't say I was either.

I'll rephrase it for the hard of thinking.

'Personally after a 3 hour journey in a motor vehicle that might or might not be quite cramped, at 49 I need some time to get my head together.'

Op, since you have said you have wondered about asd, I would talk to someone medical about it, rather than his school. Schools do not always recognise it in high functioning children.

Agree 'punishing' DS would be neither warrented nor productive. DC can be really awkward and self concious at this age including those who were previously chatty. Next time there's a social event it might be worth talking about what the behaviour expectations will be. Sometimes with my anti-social little darlings this went as far as getting them to prepare a few social questions and having a quick role-play to get them warmed up before the event. I know it sounds daft but for a 9 yr old social graces/expectations are just another skill to be learned rather than an innate part of character.

Unfortunately it's something you have to learn growing up, that sometimes you have to put up with boring situations and people. Things like work, in laws.

It does sound like he was a bit rude, but I have to say my family are a bit more understanding and supportive and would probably have noticed and someone would have offered to take them to the park for half an hour to give them a break.

You do seem to be missing the big thing in here which you can actually change, which is yourself. You could have made a bigger effort to include him in the group, change the subject to something he was interested in and get him to chat rather than giving him his tablet.

Maybe if you do it again even elderly relative might fancy a trip to the park. Appreciate it's not a great idea while cold though. Also next time, while you are in the car chat to him about what he's been up to lately and say things like 'I bet your Grandad/elderly relative would like to hear about that' so he maybe has a few ideas. Think about what they have in common and draw that out. Or maybe encourage the older guests to talk about something he might relate to like scrapes they got into at school. My Gran is 87 and had a lovely conversation with a younger female relative about wartime beauty hacks over Xmas. Gravy browning on the legs to look like tights and eyeliner up the back of the legs for the seam, heating up metal rollers on the range and making custom clothing from old bits. Try and think what they have that unites them rather than assuming it has to be boring.

He turned his back again. He's 9. He probably forgot and his body just moved subconsciously into a position he felt more comfortable in. Even adults do this surely?

It sounds like one of those thoroughly boring days that kids hate but yes, I agree are obligated to learn to do. I don't think it sounds like he behaved that badly at all.

Trifle punishing isn't the answer though.

If you have a young family member who is obviously struggling to be involved then you help them.
Don't just ring the mother later bitching.

You are full of excuses. You seem to think everyone should be pandering around him because he's a child. You are meant to be teaching him good manners, not excusing his rudeness. Why should the adults have to dance around him getting him to talk?
And giving up his Saturday? He's a child! You are setting yourself up here for some bad behaviour down the line.

It's not as simple, for me anyway, as just not 'letting' kids do something and hey presto! that's it, they never do it again

Oh, and just to add, I did encourage him to tell them about things from school a couple of times, but that was when he didn't speak loudly enough and elderly person didn't hear. My parents did, but didn't ask follow up questions. I'm shocked so many people here are so harsh towards a 9 year old but believe that the child's fit and healthy grandparents had no responsibility to take an interest in him.

Giving him jobs to do s a very good idea. He very kindly took the elderly person to the toilet (not in it, obviously, just took her to the ladies!) in the pub and held doors nicely going in and out of her flat - she was way behind him. He's not all bad .

Yes, it wasn't a great day for him, but we used to see a lot of the elderly person before she stopped travelling a couple of years ago, so we need to make the effort, and I can't afford two nights in a hotel really (we stayed over that night) so that's why we ended up straight in the pub.

corythatwas has posted what I was trying to say very well.

He might have ASD. IME it's under-diagnosed. Teachers are not trained to make rule out a diagnosis. It's a term used to describe someone who has some of many many qualities/behaviours. However - it's always a tricky balance to know how much allowance to make for it and how much the child needs to learn how to behave so as to make for a pleasant time for everyone and ultimately be easier for the child as s/he goes through life. A child who has difficulty with reading or numbers would expect to be given support and practice as these are such important skills. It's the same with communication and managing your emotions.

You have my sympathy - a long drive then sitting around is nor child-friendly. Otoh, your elderly relative is probably quite unaware of how it is for a child these days.

It's all about managing this situation.

Came on to post similar to what Suki has just posted. Your DS sounds like many 9 year olds. I think most responses here are incredibly harsh. Some children are shy and introverted and find these situations difficult. He needs gentle support and adults who understand and can help him along and build his confidence. Telling him off and making too much if this will probably just make him anxious.

I think you're getting a really hard time OP. I have an almost 10 year old DD who would've acted very similarly to your boy. She is really awkward and shy around adults, especially ones she sees infrequently. She is not rude, just a shy, sensitive girl. I am teaching her appropriate social skills but it's a learning process. Not every child is confident, sociable and able to cope with these kind of situations. She and her sister (8) ASD would certainly have needed some time out with an activity too.

paul no I just think the initial piling in of nasty comments directed at a shy 9 year old whose parents are divorcing and who is comparing himself to a socially aware younger brother are horrible.

Look no way would I have taken my 4 very sociable kids on a 3 hour car drive just for a pub meal! It's crazy.

They should have met half way or stopped the night.

I'm also a bit surprised that the OP expected the other adults to go and sit next to her son and introduce a topic that he'd be comfortable talking about. Really???
Why not do that yourself, being the parent who knows your child's interests? In that scenario if I picked up that my child was feeling a bit left out/ awkward, I would draw them in by taking the initiative myself.
I imagine many elderly people aren't particularly au fait with a 9 year olds interests anyway.

Ah cross posts, OP is now saying she did introduce some topics, but her son replied quietly and elderly relative couldn't hear.

You can't 'punish' social anxiety out of someone.

Op I really shouldn't worry aibu is an incredibly rough area of mumsnet and certain posters just enjoy putting the boot in.

Your ds hardly told the relative to fuck off did he?

He's fine. Keep building his confidence xx

Oswin: I disagree. Some shyness isn't an issue - I wouldn't expect him to be chatty or socially sparkling. I would expect him not to be this rude.

I imagine the tablet was the nail in the coffin. If it was for 15 minutes it really didn't need to come out at all, but probably seemed extremely rude after everything else.

My 9 year old was shy and awkward at a do yesterday, had she had books and distraction she would have sunk into them very happily and hermit like. Without those distractions she did eventually ease into things and have a nice time and chat to relatives and family friends. I know every 9 year old will be different but if they are NT I would expect them to be able to handle a few hours without distraction (that presumably they were able to look at on the long car journeys)