To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

Wow, can't believe the amount of judgemental posters today who obviously have perfectly behaved and exceptionally sociably able young children!
OP, doesn't sound like you are making excuses for ds to me. He's only 9, so yes, explain and pull him up on not turning his back towards people and looking at them during conversations, but tbh I think he was prob bored out of his head for most of the day (sorry) and cannot be expected to take the lead in conversing with grandparents and other elderly relatives if they are not putting in an effort to engage him in something which interests him. There is a limit to which a 9 year old can make polite conversation!

YANBU

Sounds like he was feeling socially awquid. Faking it when you feel shy is something you learn over time. You tried to get him to turn but it wasnt like he was meaning to be rude more that he was giving off closed off body language and it wasnt something he was meaning to do ( I say this as someone very shy and as a child making eye contact was really uncomfortable). If he was rude so were they for not trying to engage him with something that interested him. I bet all it would have taken was one of them sitting with him and asking about school, games on tablet or what got for christmas. I feel bad that kids are meant to sit there only talking about what adults interested in. I have younger children but my inlaws constantly expect my kids to perform for some far flung relitive or friend they have never met and then wonder why the children hide behind me, my dh can chat to anyone but being an introvert and very shy I can understand how children feeling. I would talk to him about being polite (a set of rules to help when you feel uncertain in situation) the role reversal will be your older child is more aware of himself. My 5 year old can prattle on about complete nonscience and not feel self concsious. By talking to him what to do in that social situation you can help for future situations. 9 is a difficult age, they are not teens but not a young child. Dont tell him off as poor kid was probably not knowing what to do. The relitive didnt hear him when he tried so felt more awquid and then no one tried to pull him out of his shell. He probably felt like did wrong thing so didnt know what to do next. Next time if you see him start to close off bring up a topic that he feels confident about like 'oh did you tell ..... about this thing you did at school, club etc' so he can talk about something sure on to build confidence. Its easy to say he isnt a toddler but a 9 year old will find this situation more difficult as more self aware. Just work on confidence

Mine are younger so I have nothing to compare to, but I think the responses are harsh. It isn't an ongoing problem? He was just having an off day and tired after a long journey... I think you should say nothing this time or he might feel anxious and under pressure next time he's visiting. Forcing someone out of feeling a bit shy won't work.

It does sound like he was rude. What I don't understand is why you didn't take him aside and discuss it with him at the time, and maybe try and put some coping strategies in place if you knew he felt uncomfortable, rather than just trying to make excuses for it afterwards?

Imagine how you might feel it when your 'old' you are sitting with a child who so obviously doesn't want to be there. It would be upsetting.
As an aside, why was a pub lunch not ideal after the drive?
I wouldn't be upset - I'd be empathising and wishing they had something more interesting to do
After 3 hours in a car I'd not want to go straight into somewhere where I had to sit down again and not move around. I'd want to be able to walk around a bit, stretch my legs, have some space. Maybe that's what the OP was thinking?

I agree with a PP that you've glossed over the divorce issue a bit - how is he coping with all of that? My parents' divorce (when was 8 years old) impacted me massively in terms of social interaction. My 5 year old sister, not so much.

3 hour journey followed by sitting at the table & being well behaved.
I'd be bored stiff and I'm 40.
Tell them to leave him alone. He's 9 not 19 & it was one single day. Kids shouldn't have to explain every single aspect of their behaviour any more than adults and it doesn't sound like they had done anything to accommodate children on their visit.

Bear in mind that it sounds like the DS only had about 15 mins on the tablet. That's nothing when you consider the 3 hour trip there stuck in a car, 3 hours back, hour or two in the pub, however many hours in the flat. I hope he got the day after to totally relax and do whatever he wanted

He's only 9 bless him,you know your DS OP far better than anyone on this thread and it sounds like your very intune to your DS which is a great thing,so many parents aren't!

It sounds like he's struggling a bit at the moment in social situations,there are plenty of adults that do,there's usually more than one thread on here every day from an adult that's struggling with having to make eye contact and conversation with other people that they don't know that well/don't see very often so I don't know why you or your DS are getting such a hard time,after all this is a young child were talking about!

It sounds for your DS like it's a more recent thing than something that's been going on since he was tiny.
Just keeping an eye on it OP,supporting him when he needs it and praising him when he's trying is all that you need to do at the moment.
There's obviously alot going on for you all with a divorce and your older DS noticing the growth and change in his little brother.

You sound like a really good Mum and I agree with you about your parents, not my Dad but my Mum could be the same,very critical of others no matter they're age without ever making the effort to understand those other adults or children.

Kali110 I didn't expect the elderly person to go to him, I meant my parents, and they are not especially elderly. Tbh, I'm probably being influenced by all the memories I have of my childhood and my parents weren't especially great. I spent a lot of time on my own (was an only) and was expected to just go along with whatever my parents wanted to do. A lot of weekends they would be upstairs while I was alone downstairs, so it pisses me off for them to criticise my child's social skills as I don't feel like I ever was taught much in that line by them.

I also don't agree with whoever said I should have told him off publically - that would have just made him feel worse surely. I also don't understand all the responses that are on the lines of 'I wouldn't have let mine do this. I would have told them off' etc etc. As if that magically solves it. I did speak to him and he did slightly adjust his behaviour accordingly. It's not as simple, for me anyway, as just not 'letting' kids do something and hey presto! that's it, they never do it again.

I have often wondered if he has asd, but teachers have always said no, and whenever I used to mention it to his dad he would tell me I was being ridiculous. I will certainly talk to him about how he felt, and how he may have made others feel, and try and better prepare him for similar situations in the future.

Wow, harsh crowd today OP!

I don't think yabu at all. You know your son and you know he was feeling uncomfortable.

When I was that age my instinct in those situations (oh the hours and hours sitting in my great grandparents nursing home) I just introverted myself and hoped it would be over soon.

Chances are that if you were at a theme park or bowling alley he would have been the life and sole.

You can't expect a 9 year old to have the same social skills as an adult in this situation and you can't expect him to overcome being uncomfortable just to keep relatives happy.

Leave the poor lad be.

I agree with stone and think responses have been harsh. It sounds like a nightmare for a 9yo.
I have DD who can be introverted and DS who charms everyone he meets.

"At that age old people are boring and smell weird."

By the way, he hasn't got an ipad - don't know how people afford them. It's a very basic tablet he has and was on it for about 15 minutes.

An iPad and a basic tablet do pretty much the same thing.

Some of the responses are quite surprising. If I hadn't read the whole thread I would think some of you were talking about younger children. At nine you should be able to expect a child to be polite. He was told turning his back was rude, yet continued to do so.

*soul!

I think it was normal behaviour for a shy child. My oldest dd would have possibly acted the same. She is 10 and very self conscious. I think perhaps at the time you could have encouraged him to speak on topics he likes or rearranged seating so he could sit closer to you. Sounds like he felt a bit uncomfortable. He possibly felt out of his depth and it is up to adults to bring him into conversation. Lots of adults would struggle talking to an elderly person they rarely see who is hard of hearing let alone a child. He needed some support in talking to others rather than being told off.

I think you have learned some lessons for next time. Firstly I would have set my expectations for the visit for both children beforehand. As it is something that is rarely done I would stress the behaviour I would expect from them, but likewise make that easier to achieve by setting off early and splitting the car journey up with an opportunity to let off steam before the meal. I wouldn't expect to need things to 'entertain' at that age - small talk is s useful social skill to learn.

I think it is your responsibility to draw your DS1 into conversation, either by linking other people's experiences to his "oh that's great that you enjoyed the concert, DS1 has been doing an interesting music project at school at the moment, why don't you explain it DS?" Etc. I would certainly not have 'rewarded' his rude behaviour at the meal with IPad time. What message is that sending to him or DS2?

I think you are right to help continue to build DS1's confidence, but what you describe is socially rude behaviour and i would explain this to him away from DS2. Perhaps try to get to the bottom of why he has suddenly become so reserved. It can be easy to get defensive about our children's behaviour, especially when we can see reasons for it, but it is so important that these aren't excuses. He was rude, no matter the reason why, and it would be helpful for all of you to look at how the situation could be handled better next time.

Child was rude but agree that adults, esp Grandparents should model the right social behaviour and not expect children to be performing chimps. A bit of persistent but gentle encouragement to communicate would be welcome from them. My MIL is almost beside herself with indignation when one of the grandkids play up and can't wait to make unhelpful comparisons.
Sooo, he needs a good talking through about social expectations and I would ask your parents to help out a bit more at the next social situation.

adults, not children, should be expected to set a good example
Yet you allowed him to sit with his back to an elderly relative who was trying to engage him in conversation, without intervening.
How about you (as an adult) set him a far better example than allowing him to imagine this behaviour is even slightly ok??

Felt the need to briefly add my thoughts as the Op seems to be getting a rather harsh set of responses.

I am always against taking in toys and props to keep children occupied when going out to eat. I always sigh when I see a family/group out to eat and the children are very much in charge of whats going on.

However, I think the 9 year old just felt awkward and the longer the whole event went on, the worse he felt. I would have been exactly the same. I am sure that if he had been more used to seeing these relatives then he would have been more comfortable and therefore not had his back turned and so on. I doubt very much that he did that to be rude, he just felt strange around old people who were expecting him to entertain them.

I had similar with older relatives recently (we see them maybe once every few years). Because my youngest wasn't 'performing' for them all the time - eg talking constantly, dancing, singing, coming out with hilarious jokes etc, one of them kept asking 'whats wrong, why are you in a funny mood' and so on throughout the visit. All that did was make us all feel uncomfortable and therefore even less likely to speak. When someone is glaring at you and making comments all you want is for the ground to swallow you up.

I feel for you Op! Stand your ground and say he wasn't being rude at all.