To not want to punish ds for this 'rudeness' when visiting relatives?

[woundedplacerias]

I took my dc, aged 9 & 7, to visit my parents and another elderly relative last weekend. It is a 3 hour drive away and we went straight to a pub where they were buying us lunch. Obviously, a pub meal straight after a long drive wasn't ideal, but logistics meant it was the least worst option.

Dc took books and small figures to the pub and were really very good. However, the eldest wasn't very talkative, perhaps to the point of coming across as a bit rude. He was always a very talkative child and loved talking to adults. However, as he has got older he has become a little more circumspect, and we don't really see these people often, especially the elderly relative as she doesn't travel anymore, so I think he felt a bit awkward.

He sat with his back a little to her, though I kept telling him t turn around, and didn't look at her, or the others, when talking. This made it harder for her to hear him, and a couple of times he spoke and she didn't hear, so he kind of gave up. He has a habit of not making eye contact when he's uncomfortable, and of course it exacerbates things as people don't then realise he is actually talking to them. Meanwhile, ds2 was right on form, holding forth on all manner of topics and generally being really chatty and engaging. It was like they had done a role reversal from how they were a couple of years ago, when ds1 used to talk non-stop and ds2 was incredibly shy. I feel like ds1 will have been very aware of this and comparing himself unfavourably to ds2, as there is a lot of competition between them at the moment and he is struggling a bit with accepting that ds2 is just as good as him at a lot of things. I am obviously working on that with him.

After lunch we went back to the elderly person's flat, where things carried on more or less the same. I allowed ds1 a bit of time on his tablet as no one was really talking much to him anyway. Elderly relative is absolutely lovely, but not really up to engaging a child who is being quite hard work anymore and my parents are not that great with children tbh. I feel like he needed one of them to go and sit next to him and get him talking about a topic he is really interested in, but no one did.

Now I have just spoken to my mum on the phone and she has gone on and on about what is 'wrong with' ds1, I shouldn't let him get away with being so rude etc etc. I feel like he felt uncomfortable, and wasn't being rude. No one made an effort with him in fact (I only blame my parents for this). AIBU?

So he tried to engage and the elderly relative couldn't hear and his grandparents ignored him basically.
That must have been a kick in the teeth for him.

babbity as a gran I know what my grandchildren are interested in. My parents do too and they are 89/87. Grandson is 5.

The ops parents should b ashamed of not knowing what floats their grandsons boats.

I am not convinced that it helps to see every undesirable behaviour as a misdemeanour that has to be punished out of a child.

With sociability, I think it is equally valid (and often far more productive) to see it as a skills set that everybody needs to a certain extent - just like ability to dress themselves, or use the toilet, or read and write- , but which some children may need more support and encouragement with.

That doesn't mean you are letting them off the hook or saying "it's ok, they don't have to bother". It is not a difference in values, only a difference in how you go about achieving your goal.

The connection has to go both ways, it takes two to tango. He isn't a toddler, but he isn't a mature adult either who can take into account the deficiencies of adults and intuit what they want from him and how they are likely to feel. He's not a performing monkey.

I wouldn't punish him. I would encourage him to look people in the eye and say hello. Small steps.

otoh I have absolutely no problem with the idea of an NT 9yo enduring a certain amount of physical discomfort for the sake of a greater good

Punishing a child for being shy and probably going through a very emotional time makes me shudder to be honest.

Cruel

intuit what they want from him and how they are likely to feel. He's not a performing monkey.

No-one expected this. He was told what not to do. He did it anyway.

i am quite surprised at how many people think a 9yo shouldn't have a small, quiet toy at the table.

I think a long lunch with lots of adult conversation would be a little challenging for most 9yos I know (even though everyone else on this thread has their own little Oscar Wilde ready to engage and amuse at the drop of a hat ).

I WOULD expect my 9yo to converse for a bit, to ask after others and politely answer questions, but I'm 38 and I can find long lunches tedious if the topic of conversation is not one I have much knowledge or experience of.

In these circumstances my DC are expected to make polite chitchat while we have drinks and wait for our first course, but then I think it's reasonable for them to zone out a little bit later on.

Yes, the back turning thing will have come across as rude. You can give your DS a quick pointer on that one. Next time you go out suggest that you'd like him to join in with conversation at the table for however long a period, and that you're happy for him to colour/play after that.

Aah - polarised opinions.

A day with elderly relatives is one of the challenges children need to manage nicely. I would never allow tablets or phones when in company.
The ability to have conversations with others doesn't always come naturally and is learned, just as good manners are. They won't learn if there is an easier option to opt out and gaze at a screen.

You could teach him how to behave. Being shy is no excuse really for rudeness - that's what I teach my dcs when they say they're shy. So they are expected to smile, make eye contact and answer questions.

Handsome Devil, I think I am still old-fashioned enough to think that it doesn't matter terribly if a one-off occasion is a bit boring or not. I wouldn't punish if they slipped up, but wouldn't feel guilty if they felt bored for a few hours either. I find staff meetings excruciatingly boring, but being able to endure them without showing it is a useful skill.

Turning his back was rude.

I'd talk to him about that. He's also old enough to understand that sometimes we have to do things we wouldn't choose to do. This includes talking to old people!

Making eye contact is very difficult, even painful for some people. I wouldn't push a child where asd is being wondered about, to do that.

YANBU, OP.

Some ridiculously harsh posts on here about your poor DS. A 3 hour car journey followed by a pub meal and he's expected to behave like a performing monkey? Stuff that!! It sounds as though he may be a little shy - my DD suffers from anxiety so would have reacted in the same way at 9.

It wouldn't do any harm to explain to him that turning his back could be perceived as rude by others, but otherwise I don't see anything wrong with his behaviour. My own DC (now 19 and 15) are regularly complimented by others for their politeness and good manners, so they can't be that bad. Better to be quiet than running riot, like so many other 'lively' young hooligans children I see enduring enjoying pub meals.

As another poster has mentioned, teachers are not trained in diagnosing ASD... it may be worth your trying to get a proper diagnosis from actual experts...

As a grandmother to a 9 year old and a six year old my sympathies lie with you and your sons.In the situation you described as a grandparent I would have pre planned something after the meal of interest for the children -outdoors letting off steam with a ball,roller skates,a craft activity,baking,while you chatted to elderly relative.Taken the opportunity to explain about elderly relatives deafness and suggested some things they may like to tell her about when we rejoined others.Your parents sound hard work-your sons sound like normal kids to me and warrant a chat about how they felt,praise for amusing themselves quietly and a gentle discussion about communication with the deaf and lonely.

I haven't read all the comments, but I think those saying DS1 was being rude have obviously never been in the situation as a child. When I was young we'd visit my father's parents who lived just over an hour away, in an upstairs flat. We wouldn't be allowed to do anything other than sit there in case we made any noise which might upset the downstairs neighbours. After a couple of hours we'd visit some great aunts who also lived in a flat and, as a bonus, smoked like chimneys.

As children we wouldn't have initiated any conversations. That would have been rude. All we could really do was sit there and wait for the torturous day to be over. It wasn't fun.

OP I'm on your side. What a hideous day for your DS. Long journeys there and back, straight to sitting in a pub, then to a flat. It definitely is the adults' position to initiate conversation, not the DC. Your parents, or you, should/could have taken him away/out for half an hour. He sounds like he's going through a bit of a time himself. Tbh I wouldn't even discuss the day with him. I think any chat will make him feel bad and he hasn't done anything wrong.

He obviously needs some help to develop his social skills.

But he is 9yo. I'm shocked at the number of fully grown adults here thinking a 9yo could and should have the skills to be able to hold court and create a multitude and continous stream of inet resting conversation.

I can't do that and I'm 36!

My Ds is autistic. He doesn't give eye contact or respond appropriately to conversation and really struggles to have a 2 way conversation on another's topic of choosing. The adults spend lots of time guiding and teaching him these skills.mits how children learn - through having the behaviour modelled by the adults.

As an adult I always feel that the onus is on me to get a child to engage with me - not the other way round. If they don't want to, then I see it as a failure on my part - not rudeness on theirs.

YANBU. Your children seem perfectly normal. In a couple of years' time your younger DS will go through a shy stage and his big brother will probably come out of his shell. It's just a phase - and your relatives should have been more understanding.

I think this is a situation where you know your DS.

Of course you should help him to manage these situations.

However, you recognise that he was struggling and shy, and your judgement is more likely to be correct than a bunch of strangers on the internet who haven't met him and went there.

Help him, don't punish him.

OP I agree that some of the responses on here are really harsh. DS1 is 16 and very introverted. My DM always insists that we go out for a meal whenever my DPs visit and I know that DS1 detests it. My DM is the most extrovert person I've ever met and just doesn't 'get' people who are naturally quiet and find socialising difficult. We spent Christmas with them last year and there were 20 people there on Christmas Day, half of whom DS1 had never met. He was quiet but polite and tried really hard to engage in conversation. When we left, my DM said to him 'Thank you for your company, well ....your presence anyway' and I could see him look really crestfallen because I knew how much of an effort he'd made. I really pulled her up on it and she's laid off him since.
Lots of children become self conscious at around age 8/9. I would just make it clear to him about not turning your back on people and plan some strategies with him for these sort of occasions. And don't listen to the Perfect Parents Brigade.

I totally agree with merrymouse that's what I was going to say then I saw they had posted it for me.