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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think that men can never become pregnant or carry a pregnancy?

260 replies

Manumission · 09/01/2017 07:30

And that this must be yet another very confusing week in which to be seven years old or thereabouts?

Nearly every week is an irritating week in which to be a clear thinker of any age but I've been really pondering this morning what it felt like to figure the world out as a child. I'm glad I'm not one ATM and that I don't have smallish ones.

OP posts:
BeyondTheStarryNight · 09/01/2017 14:57

I do all of those things, am I a man?

Original poster
Manumission · 09/01/2017 14:58

Daisy, if we don't use biology to explain to our seven year olds what a "man" is, how do we explain it without using sexist sterotyping?

EXACTLY this.

OP posts:
Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 14:58

if we don't use biology to explain to our seven year olds what a "man" is

Who said biology wouldn't be explored? I'd say that Hayden was born as a woman so he has the female bits you need to make and grow a baby. I'd then say that Hayden feels that his gender is as a man, the way he feels and lives his life. So this is how a man can have a baby.

I happen to have a just-turned-7 year old and she understands gender, in her own terms. I'll see what she thinks of it when I pick her up from school..

noeffingidea · 09/01/2017 15:00

Daisyfrumps it would be inaccurate though. Some of us like our children to learn real facts, especially when it comes down to such basic biological fact ie pregnancy.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 15:02

Which of what I said exactly is inaccurate noeffingidea ?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/01/2017 15:03

Yes, Splendide. You're right. A far better way to illustrate the same point is to challenge TRAs to define the word "woman" in such a way as to cover every woman on the planet plus transwomen and without relying on gender stereotypes. Oh, and your definition can't be circular. Saying "a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" still leaves you with the word woman undefined.

Can't be done. Foxes them every time. Whereas my definition just has to cover women, and. "adult human female" does that pretty well.

noeffingidea · 09/01/2017 15:03

Daisyfrumps the way you 'feel and live your life' doesn't and can't change a man into a woman, and vice versa.

BeyondTheStarryNight · 09/01/2017 15:03

That doesn't really answer the question does it.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 15:05

It covers the duality of sex vs gender. Isn't life wonderful. This will fascinate her no end.

BeyondTheStarryNight · 09/01/2017 15:05

"then say that Hayden feels that his gender is as a man, the way he feels and lives his life."

What does that mean ? Without sexist stereotyping...

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 15:09

His NHS card says 'Mr'... Just one example.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 15:09

And I won't be generalising, to avoid confusion.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/01/2017 15:14

Can you not see that by offering your DC the explanation that a person's body may be female but that they can live their life as a man you are either going to completely confuse them about biology (the way someone lives cannot change their sex) or give them the impression that gender is real, and something it's OK to live your life by, which is hugely regressive and limiting.

I would say that the biggest transphobe here is the pregnant man, for hiding the truth rather than accepting and being proud of their trans status.

Bambambini · 09/01/2017 15:15

So define "living as a man" . Describe how you live as a man. How do men live?

I also used to pay lip service as a trans ally. Born in the wrong body, has a female brain. Can change sex etc. A trans woman is exactly as much of a woman as a born woman.

Hadn't actually thought any of it through. Once I started reading both sides and trying to define and answer the questions. I realised it just didn't stand up but was all quite silly. I had no idea that people were really demanding that everyone accept and believe the ideology and campaigning to enshrine this dodgy ideology into everyday law.

SouthWestmom · 09/01/2017 15:15

Maybe some of the comments could be tempered by a little bit of truth?

LBC ran an interview today :

The woman has stopped transitioning to male in order to have a pregnancy, doesn't like being pregnant, used donor sperm and was refused egg freezing or donor sperm on the NHS according to the interview.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/01/2017 15:17

Eh, I didn't like being pregnant, either.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 15:19

What I have taught my children is that you are born male or female and remain male or female your whole life. You can choose to dress how you want, to be called what you want and as long as it is not harmful to others indulge in whatever activity you wish. I teach them to accept the different ways people live their lives but I will not teach them lies and for me calling a pregnant person a man is a lie. Calling a person in heels and a dress when they have a penis a women is also a lie.

I choose not to lie to my children so I suppose in some circles that would make me transphobic Hmm

noeffingidea · 09/01/2017 15:20

Daisyfrumps it doesn't matter what his NHS card says. Only women (adult human female) can become pregnant therefore 'he' is a woman, albeit one who presents and identifies as a man (which is entirely their right, of course).It is impossible to change biological sex and it is impossible to ignore biology when it comes to a biological process. Pregnancy is a biological process. One might just as well ignore the fact we need oxygen, food and water to survive. What if your daughter says 'I feel I can live without breathing' .Are you going to humour her, or are you going to tell her the truth?
It's entirely up to you, of course but I personally find it baffling when people encourage their children to ignore facts to suit themselves.

Bambambini · 09/01/2017 15:22

Hayden probably just needed the money from the article, there is a baby coming soon. If they can play the tabloids to get some money - fair play. Only thing is that I think it encourages more people to rollmtheirneyes and see how ridiculous the whole ideology is. I can also understand why they would go through a pregnancy if they knew they would want a child at some point.

DalekBred · 09/01/2017 15:51

*We teach our children the "facts of life" and it is fact that a man cannot get pregnant.
The headlines for these types of stories are always attention grabbing - Man pregnant or first women to fight on the front line blah blah blah.

It's beyond ridiculous now.
I could not careless what they call themselves or how they dress/live their lives but I do believe the correct terms need to be used. What is so wrong with saying trans man or trans women?

*I just dont understand how someone can apparently feel so disconnected from their 'female-ness' that they choose to present themselves as a man. Then go through the most 'female' thing they possibly could.

Surely if you truly 'felt like a man' whatever that means hmm then becoming pregnant and giving birth would be the furthest thing from your mind?!*

Thank you. exactly. and to all others who are on the same wavelength.

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/01/2017 16:14

I drive a white van, I can be found a lot of the time on building sites, I have a hard hat and steel toed boots and I don't own a dress.

Am I man or a woman?

SpeakNoWords · 09/01/2017 16:20

I suspect that the answer is that the only way to know is to ask you how you feel.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 16:27

I would say it is to ask what sex you are not how you feel.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 16:37

Article looked at, discussion had and 7yo daughter is not confused. She's already aware that 'gender 'is fluid and doesn't really exist as an objective construct (obviously not in that terminology).

However she also lives in society where she knows most people choose to determine themselves in a certain binary stereotypical way, and others don't.

She understands Hayden is biologically female but has decided to take tablets to give him characteristics such as facial hair, lower voice etc, and that when Hayden has his baby he may at some point have surgery to give him a penis.

She said "He looks like a man, but that bit (pointing to his growing tummy) looks like a woman. Ohhhh (excitedly). So he's a man with woman bits having a baby".

...

Some people choose to live their life by following binary gender stereotypes. Others don't. That's fine. A whole different conceptuality on identity away from gender would of course be wonderful actually, but short of societal revolution - people can do as they please and Hayden isn't breaking any laws. The most important thing is choice.

I find it very interesting to read these discussions on why Hayden's identity apparently should be invalidated.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/01/2017 16:41

That wouldn't necessarily be any help, Speak. In a discussion on Feminist Chat recently most posters said they didn't know what being a woman felt like. They could only tell what it felt like being themself, a person. The women I've heard discuss this don't have a gender identity. For example if you ask me how I know I'm a woman I can only answer in terms of material reality.

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