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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that men can never become pregnant or carry a pregnancy?

260 replies

Manumission · 09/01/2017 07:30

And that this must be yet another very confusing week in which to be seven years old or thereabouts?

Nearly every week is an irritating week in which to be a clear thinker of any age but I've been really pondering this morning what it felt like to figure the world out as a child. I'm glad I'm not one ATM and that I don't have smallish ones.

OP posts:
ArcheryAnnie · 09/01/2017 13:51

Also see, erm.. empathy, trying to understand each other, etc..

Ah, empathy. Empathy like the trans ally had who described a rape victim as "thinking like a rapist" when the rape victim expressed a desire not to have to access rape services with male-bodied people, because of the trauma she'd suffered?

Seriously, Daisy, you appear to live in quite a different world from the rest of us.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 13:52

Now who's being pedantic

Not at all Grin

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 13:54

But in all seriousness, would anyone be fearing for their safety sharing a 3 bedded antenatal or postnatal room with Hayden? Is he going to sexually abuse you at 9 months pregnant or postpartum? With an existing media profile? Come off it.

I'd think it was fantastic.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 13:57

ArcheryAnnie You're talking about things that have no relevance to the person being discussed.

Seriously, Daisy, you appear to live in quite a different world from the rest of us.

I really don't. You have no idea who I am or what I do. Why the personal attack?

SpeakNoWords · 09/01/2017 13:58

I think most women would probably assume that Hayden was a masculine presenting lesbian if they were on the same maternity ward and think no more of it.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/01/2017 14:04

It's not a personal attack, Daisy, it's bafflement as to how you share a reality with the rest of us and yet don't appear to notice how women (and women's spaces, identity, privacy, safety) are under constant attack.

I wouldn't find Hayden in the least threatening if I shared an antenatal ward with them, because I would know that anyone just about to birth a baby is female, however they identify their gender.

If I was sharing a hospital room, a prison cell, a homeless shelter, etc etc with a transwoman, yes, I'd absolutely feel extremely threatened, mostly because I don't want to share intimate space with a male-bodied stranger, but also now because there's now a documented history of women being threatened, abused, etc etc by transwomen who are angry about women who don't want them in their spaces, so I would feel unable to complain without risking my safety any further. So, threatened and unsafe however you slice it.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 14:04

Yes Daisy I have read the article. I have empathy but I am afraid I will not join in this trend of blindly agreeing to what is obviously an impossible act -man getting pregnant.
The person featured is not a man and never will be . If they so honestly feel like a man and want to present and live like a man then getting pregnant is the opposite of that.

She has every right to become a parent but that clearly does not make her a man that makes her a women.
I hope they do not regret any of the choices they have madeand maybe somebody should have supported them to just be happy with who they are.

BabychamSocialist · 09/01/2017 14:06

This just in: person with a womb can get pregnant. If you want to bash trans people (as is so popular on here) at least do it properly.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 14:08

What are you on about Confused

BeyondTheStarryNight · 09/01/2017 14:11

I'm not saying anyone will find Hayden threatening. But as a legal male, Hayden will have the right to not be accommodated with the legal females. So will surely have to have a private room, as maternity services (funnily enough...) aren't set up for men.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 14:14

Hayden says: "I’m glad I’m doing it as I hope it inspires other people to be happy in themselves"

The person featured is not a man and never will be

Well I know who I (and virtually everyone I know apart from perhaps one person) agree with.

Manumission · 09/01/2017 14:16

babycham your post makes no sense.

OP posts:
SpeakNoWords · 09/01/2017 14:21

It depends on your understanding of the word "man" doesn't it? If it means anyone who feels their gender is male, then this person would be a man. If the word "man" means someone who's sex is adult human male (as in, of the sex that can produce sperm), then this person isn't a man, they're a transman. I'm not sure that the word "man" can mean both of those things at the same time.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 14:31

Isnt the definition of man adult male?

SpeakNoWords · 09/01/2017 14:36

Yes, but the issue is the definition of male. Is it your gender identity alone, or your sex? I can't see how it could mean both/either at the same time.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/01/2017 14:38

Your beliefs, Strongmummy, are frequently found among those who haven't investigated the issue or are working on out-of-date information. It used to be that transwomen were extremely dysphoric men who had all the surgeries and who were not sexually attracted to women. Things have changed a great deal. Today's TRAs call the old-fashioned transsexuals "truscum" and pride themselves on their ladysticks with which plenty hope to penetrate lesbians.

Most transwomen do not think they were "born in the wrong body" (which is, in itself, a nonsense), they aren't dysphoric, 80% of them have - and plan to keep - their male genitals and over 70% are sexually attracted to women.

Given these facts, is it unsurprising that women object to sharing showers etc with what many of us (including old-fashioned transsexuals) would describe as men in drag? To add to this it is well-known that some transwomen, generally late transitioning, do so to gratify sexual fetishes. If you don't believe me, I suggest you spend some time investigating the Reddit subgroup r/asktransgender where a search under terms such as "panties" or "tampon" will prove a real eye opener and all in the words of transwomen, not us mean feminists.

You might be better informed as to current issues if you Google "cotton ceiling", a nasty piece of rape culture wherein lesbians are shamed for not being prepared to have sex with males. Some transwomen who want sex with women are happy to define themselves as lesbian. Lesbians are not happy about this.

Women opposed to trans ideology don't want trans people to face discrimination in employment or housing. We do not, however, feel that women's interests should - as always - go to the bottom of the list, beneath males however they identify and women who claim to be men.

Plenty of posters on the Feminism boards started off with your opinions, Strongmummy. As the evidence piles up they change their mind. Currently trans activists are pushing for a misogynist and homophobic agenda.

Given that research demonstrates that transwomen commit sex and violent crime at the same rate as other men, and it's no wonder women are fighting against the intrusion by transwomen into spaces that are female only for reasons of our safety and dignity.

There is no evidence that transwomen are more likely to be attacked than women. They aren't. Transwomen who are sex workers have a very high chance of being attacked, but this is in comparison with men, rather than female sex workers who are also at high rate of attack.

Those who accuse women of transphobia also add to this a claim that no transwoman has ever committed sex or violent crimes against women and girls. This isn't true either. A transwoman is currently on trial for a particularly brutal murder as we speak.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 14:41

The definition of male is your sex. When you are born your sex is either male or female. It has nothing to do with gender.

**I appreciate there are some conditions where m/f is not identifiable at birth but on a whole babies are born male or female.

noeffingidea · 09/01/2017 14:43

Well it is for those of us who accept dictionary definitions Racoon. Of course there appears to be a new group of people who make up their own definitions of words and then get angry when the majority of people refuse to use them and accuse them of being transphobic.
As far as 7 years old children and the Sun (and other tabloids) and their headlines go, it's never to early to explain to children that just because something is written in the paper (or on tv as 'news' ) doesn't make it fact.
You could actually make into a learning experience, similar to debunking religion and other myths.

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 14:46

It's not that hard to understand and explain to a 7 year old that the reference to 'man' is his gender, as opposed to his genetic sex.

SpeakNoWords · 09/01/2017 14:47

Well, not if you want to continue to use man to refer to their sex. It can't mean both, can it?

Bambambini · 09/01/2017 14:48

I admit I'm a bigoty transphobe.

I don't believe you can change sex
I don't believe women have penises or that men can give birth
I don't believe that a lesbian can have a penis
I don't believe that males should get to decide and tell females what a woman is and demand we change our language concerning female issues
I don't believe that males should get to demand access to traditional female spaces such as dorms, changing rooms etc

I can't help feel that male transactivists who scream TERF and bigot actually have any respect for or even like women so. I find their arguments and demands so unreasonable, narcissitic, aggressive and bullying. I won't be bullied and forced into having to say and think what these people demand of me.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/01/2017 14:50

I don't have a 7 year old but it wouldn't occur to me to bring gender into an explanation of the pregnant man story, Daisy. Silly newspapers make up daft stories would be my take on it. Gender is not a concept that I'd consider useful until children are much older and become aware of sexism.

splendide · 09/01/2017 14:51

Arguing that we should accept dictionary definitions is an extremely weak argument. It implies you'll change your views if the dictionary definition changes (which is absolutely could).

BeyondTheStarryNight · 09/01/2017 14:51

Daisy, if we don't use biology to explain to our seven year olds what a "man" is, how do we explain it without using sexist sterotyping?

Bambambini · 09/01/2017 14:55

Exactly - what is a man? Is it somone who wears trousers and flat lace up shoes, has short hair, watched football and drinks pints of lager?

Or is it an adult with XY chromosomes and a penis. The one whose sperm impregnates the woman, the female of the species.