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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that men can never become pregnant or carry a pregnancy?

260 replies

Manumission · 09/01/2017 07:30

And that this must be yet another very confusing week in which to be seven years old or thereabouts?

Nearly every week is an irritating week in which to be a clear thinker of any age but I've been really pondering this morning what it felt like to figure the world out as a child. I'm glad I'm not one ATM and that I don't have smallish ones.

OP posts:
bearfishdoodle · 09/01/2017 11:24

What they are: a woman who wears clothes that society has deemed are 'male.' Clothes have no reason to be gendered. I wear trousers every day and have very short hair, so what.

bearfishdoodle · 09/01/2017 11:27

I also find it utterly bizarre that my mother was told she could not have HRT during her menopause because it wasn't essential yet hormones are freely available to those who do not need them for health reasons. Ditto the parents who had to attend court to get puberty blockers for their disabled child.

splendide · 09/01/2017 11:28

What they are: a woman who wears clothes that society has deemed are 'male.' Clothes have no reason to be gendered. I wear trousers every day and have very short hair, so what.

Yes I rather agree with this but then what is your objection? That he calls himself a man? How would you stop that? How would it be policed?

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 11:32

Unfortunately my lived experience means I always have to err on the side of caution as a result of male violence.

My lived experience means I have to err on the side of caution as a result of female violence. It doesn't affect my thoughts and feelings on either gender.

Past experience is an explanation rather than an excuse for assuming someone with XY chromosomes is any more likely to attack you in a loo than someone with XX chromosomes.

What would you rather the individual discussed referred to themselves as, if not a man?

Original poster
Manumission · 09/01/2017 11:33

Pointing out the bleeding obvious does come across as a bit stuffy, OP.

Why? It's obviously necessary to assert the obvious.

OP posts:
amispartacus · 09/01/2017 11:35

because it wasn't essential yet hormones are freely available to those who do not need them for health reasons

I don't think hormones are freely available.

Do you think trans people should be denied hormones?

Daisyfrumps · 09/01/2017 11:37

What should the individual refer to themselves as, if not a man? Is he allowed to say 'trans-man'? Man with womb? Or is he only allowed to say 'woman'?

If you were talking to him face-to-face and he was telling you all about the birth, would you stop him and correct him and say "sorry love, you're a woman not a man"?

Oliversmumsarmy · 09/01/2017 11:39

Oliversmumsarmy: Rubbish. We pay taxes for the public good. That doesn't give us the right to make health policy

That is what elections are for.

Original poster
Manumission · 09/01/2017 11:51

Who are you talking at Daisy?

Individuals can refer to themselves any way they like can't they?

Newspapers should attempt to be factual as well as respectful.

OP posts:
Trifleorbust · 09/01/2017 11:51

Oliversmumsarmy: Obviously. And the elections we have had recognise the legitimacy of gender transition, so I suggest we just get over it.

amispartacus · 09/01/2017 11:51

If you were talking to him face-to-face and he was telling you all about the birth, would you stop him and correct him and say "sorry love, you're a woman not a man

I would be interested to know how they could rationalise the decision to become pregnant whilst undergoing a process where they feel uncomfortable in their own body.

Unless - they are one of the trans people who don't have an issue with their body (in the wrong body type trans people) but do have an issue with their gender.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/01/2017 11:53

Past experience is an explanation rather than an excuse for assuming someone with XY chromosomes is any more likely to attack you in a loo than someone with XX chromosomes.

There's always risk, but the reality is that someone with XY chromosomes is more likely to attack you in a loo than someone with XX chromosomes. This doesn't mean that all people with XY chromosomes will deffo do this, or that someone with XX chromosomes will never do this, but if you are assessing relative risk, then it's folly to ignore widespread patterns of behaviour.

splendide · 09/01/2017 11:55

There will need to be some fundamental rethinking about how and where and why men and women are barred from some spaces.

So for example - why do we keep prisons as single sex? Is it because we want all the people who wear dresses in one building and because we want everyone who's preferred pronoun is she in one building? Or is it because we don't want any pregnancy in prisons and because we want to keep a group statistically much less likely to be violent apart from a group who are more likely to be violent?

If it's the former then we can allocate prisons on the basis of presented gender. If it's the latter then we should go with biological sex.

I think it's the latter but that has no relevance to whether or not people can call themselves a woman or a man at their choice. I don't understand why the issues get so conflated.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/01/2017 11:55

Of course women have a right to argue against activists who are trying to change the meaning of the words man and woman. I do not think that anyone who is having a baby can define themself as a man while keeping a straight face. I read elsewhere that transmen often use women's facilities because they feel unsafe in the men's. I'd imagine you'd feel pretty conspicuous at 8 months gone in the gents. Not much of a sex change, really.

bearfishdoodle · 09/01/2017 11:55

Daisy I've already answered what they should be calling themselves.

It's not just my lived experience; almost violent crime is perpetrated by men and that doesnt change after transition for MtT, statistically.

bearfishdoodle · 09/01/2017 11:56

Almost all, that was meant to say.

If they can't stomach calling themselves a woman, why can't they use transman?

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 11:58

For the purpose of this story Trans man pregnant would have been spot on.

It is factual. Only for the purpose of attention grabbing was the original title used, I dont suppose they care it is incorrect.

amispartacus · 09/01/2017 12:00

For the purpose of this story Trans man pregnant would have been spot on

Exactly - and that wouldn't be media worthy.

Yesterday, the DM had a story about a trans woman who was raped. Not a woman but a trans woman - it was only a story because it was about a trans woman. It would not have been reported if it had been about a woman.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 12:06

How the media portray and report on women is still stuck in the dark ages Sad

A pregnant women is not news worthy unless it is reported as a pregnant man. Angry

splendide · 09/01/2017 12:07

Well it is true that a pregnant woman is not newsworthy. That's not a reason to be angry is it?

amispartacus · 09/01/2017 12:10

A pregnant women is not news worthy unless it is reported as a pregnant man

Depends on the woman? I am pretty sure I've read some news stories about pregnant women in the media? Or possibly pregnant?

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 12:10

It isnt anger.

Its disbelief that biological fact means nothing. It is worry that people will believe they can change sex. It is worry of how this belief could damage young people and cause them pain and anguish.

RacoonBandit · 09/01/2017 12:11

If you are a celeb or royalty then its news worthy.
Average women working at asda gets pregnant not so news worthy. Which is what this story really is.

DailyFail1 · 09/01/2017 12:12

**With a NN like that, I'd have thought facts and accuracy in journalism would go down well with you Fail grin

In all seriousness, how is impartial reporting supposed to work if it entails unquestioningly regurgitating the participants own emotional versions of truth even when those emotional narratives are incompatible with science? Or with the established meanings of words?

What is the nature or purpose of journalism then?

There must be a way to be kind without falling into thought-warp.**

I find it surprising that out of all of the incomplete, sometimes blatant lies, the Daily Mail publishes you point out the one story about a trans man to further your purposes about 'journalistic integrity'. In the UK (and indeed much or Europe) our legislation enshrines the right of people to choose and change their gender after a thorough psychological assessment. So the newspaper did nothing wrong (on this occasion) as much as it pains me to say it. If you disagree with our right to choose our gender then the answer is simple - move to a country that doesn't allow it (and probably a good many other things too).

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 09/01/2017 12:16

YANBU.

I read an article once about how 'brave' a transman (so born female and retained female reproductive organs, gave birth naturally) was to go through the scary process of giving birth. How well he did and how he isn't the every day 'birthing person' Hmm. I'm 9 months pregnant, second pregnancy and I know I'm not alone in being told things like "pregnancy isn't an illness", "don't fuss, women do this every day" and "as long as baby is ok that's all that matters" and ther minimisations of what is often a very difficult and dangerous experience.

Who knew that all I would have to do to get a bit of sympathy and understanding was - 'become' a man!

And they say there's no patriarchy...