To think that men can never become pregnant or carry a pregnancy?

[Manumission]

And that this must be yet another very confusing week in which to be seven years old or thereabouts?

Nearly every week is an irritating week in which to be a clear thinker of any age but I've been really pondering this morning what it felt like to figure the world out as a child. I'm glad I'm not one ATM and that I don't have smallish ones.

[Crumbs1]

I think I'm pretty easy going and that people can live life as they wish but I do have a concern about the modern idea that sexual identity can be swapped around at will - particularly when children are allowed to do so,at quite a young age. I worked with kids who were born with ambiguous genitalia and that was a really sad situation, party because parents found it so difficult to cope with and accept. Allowing a biologically perfect boy or girl to live as a member of the opposite sex is, in my view misguided and causes more problems than it solves. Kids can dress in a fairly unisex way without pretending to be the opposite sex. Of course, men cannot have babies and what the sun reported was a woman dressed as a man giving birth. Like some others, I think society may be adapting too far for a few. Why should we suffer unisex loos with pee all over the seat because one person may feel the don't like using the loo of their birth gender? What about the majority feeling uncomfortable? Why have single sex hospital accommodation and prisons if people can dress up and demand to be in the section for the opposite sex? All,got a bit silly - yes may be transphobic but not sure why we need to adapt normality for a few troubled souls - and never met one who wasn't deeply troubled. Awaits explosion!

[GreenTureen]

I don't necessarily think that it's confusing or unbelievable that the person would want to become pregnant whilst still wanting to ultimately transition to a man.

Yes, it's the most female thing ever, by necessity. BUT, i'm pregnant with ds3 atm and although I know it's a 'thing' partners sometimes say - 'Oh, if only I could do it for you'...I genuinely believe that if there was any way dh could take a pill and be the one to carry and give birth to our baby, he would because he's seen what a rough time of it i've had/am having. Which would have no bearing on his feelings that he's a man iyswim?

Anyway, it's a shit spashy heading and it's obvious before reading that the subject must be biologically female.

[ricepolo]

If men could give birth I bet the medical profession would have invented a cure for morning sickness by now....

wonders why on earth she agreed to dc#4 and cries when realising its five long weeks until second tri...

[Manumission]

Of course, men cannot have babies and what the sun reported was a woman dressed as a man giving birth

The thing is everyone reports it the same way. The Sun only has the picture exclusive. Numerous media organisations are using the same phrasing to report the story. Including Australian and Indian publications. Only one British broadsheet have employed inverted commas.

[Bluebolt]

I do think it is important that this case is viewed by the medical professionals dealing with children transitioning, would he at under 16 been concerned by parenthood and yet at 20 he decides to have a child before its to late. A decision a child maybe unable to predict their adult emotions to procreate but medically the options have been removed on a child's desire.

[Manumission]

Anyone who thinks this is just about The Sun is welcome to google "Hayden Cross pregnant" and see for themselves.

[mirokarikovo]

bluebolt by "maternity rights" are you talking about

(i) rights to maternity leave, return to previous job after leave, non discrimination on grounds of having been on maternity leave. I see no problem with someone who cultivates facial hair and a muscular frame but who happens to have a womb having full access to these rights.

(ii) rights to receive fertility treatment if one cannot conceive naturally within ones partnership. Given that I am fully supportive of same-sex couples having access to whatever options to help them to be parents that may be appropriate, I don't think that it is opening up any new ethical issues if a couple are unable to conceive AND one or both if them prefer to associate themselves with gender norms that are not the stereotypes that go with their biological chromosomes.

Have I missed something?

[RacoonBandit]

I missed the cat man thing entirely. Oh my word.

It was very sad. He died 2 years ago or so, on his own with very little around him. All of his body modifications were done by him self or back street butchers.
He spent years and years trying to be a cat and was never satisfied because well... he would never be a cat. I can only imagine the unhappiness and frustration he felt.

Why would you encourage anyone to achieve the impossible?
You are setting them up to fail which imo will causes them more pain than honesty would.

Live and let live but lets be truthful about it.

[Arborea]

Why should we suffer unisex loos with pee all over the seat because one person may feel the don't like using the loo of their birth gender?

I'd argue that not leaving wee on look seats is a question of manners, not gender. I am a fan of unisex loos though: it makes it easier for Dads to change nappies!

[TheThingsWeAdmitOnMN]

GreenTureen. That's entirely different. That's your DH wanting take on the pain for you, not an urge to be pregnant for his own sake.

[Bumbledumb]

If men could give birth I bet the medical profession would have invented a cure for morning sickness by now....

Thalidomide was prescribed as a cure for morning sickness and that did not go well. Would you agree to trial a drug to cure morning sickness with no knowledge of the effects the drug might have on the foetus? Morning sickness is transitory, the effects of the drugs used to alleviate it can be life long.

[TheThingsWeAdmitOnMN]

I suppose s/he could just want to be 'A PARENT' and have decided to make use of the fact s/he can, rather than it being an urge to be pregnant/carry a child. That I find totally understandable.

However, that's something that can be done privately without the media.

[BIgBagofJelly]

I will never ever get why people get so worked up by these things, it used to be the same for gay people (marriage is defined to be a man and a woman). Everyone obviously understands that the man in question is a person who identifies as a man but was born with a female body. There is no confusion so what's the issue?

It's not like being trans is exactly an enviable position to be in, trans teenagers have the highest suicide rate of any group of people, they're more likely to be attacked on the street or suffer discrimination in the work place etc etc.

[stealtheatingtunnocks]

Canadian midwifery literature now refers to "birthing parent" - because not everyone giving birth is a woman.

"Menstruators" is another common nonsense - not everyone who menstruates is a woman.

People should be able to dress and express themselves however they like, without mutilating themselves.

I can't comprehend what "I feel like a man/woman inside" means. I just feel like me.

Besides which, very few MTT look like any women I know. They tend to be very glamorous, or at least, not dressed by the supermarket like me.

[BIgBagofJelly]

My Friend's husband was a bloke bloke in most ways but said he'd like to experience pregnancy (feel the baby move, feel like you're close to it as it grows etc.), I'm a woman and I'm not that bothered, if someone else could do it for me I'd be happy enough.

[BIgBagofJelly]

stealtheatingtunnocks

But why would you expect to understand it and why does it matter whether you understand it or not? Have you read up on any of these research to do with it? Do you think people are just doing it for fun or attention? I'm not sure what the problem is?

[mirokarikovo]

Crumbs1 Of course, men cannot have babies and what the sun reported was a woman dressed as a man giving birth.

I think that as feminists we should stop using phrases like "dressed as a man" / "dressed as a woman" / "living as a man" / "living as a woman". Just using this language is buying into the crap nonsense that there is one restricted stereotyped way to dress and live if you are a woman and one stereotyped way to dress and live if you are a man. It may take more words to say what you mean but language is important.

Of course, men cannot have babies and what the sun reported was a woman dressed as a man giving birth.

Rephrase as "what the sun reported someone who likes to wear trousers and de-emphasise external evidence of their XX chromosomes, giving birth."

[splendide]

Allowing a biologically perfect boy or girl to live as a member of the opposite sex is, in my view misguided and causes more problems than it solves.

Who would "not allow" this and how would it be enforced? Teams of people in the streets enforcing a dress code? Who decides on the code?

I actually have huge sympathies with many concerns about trans rights but it's so easy for that to slip into this kind of clear bigotry. Of course people can "present" however they chose including when they are pregnant.

[splendide]

Completely agree with Miro's post above by the way. Saying you shouldn't be allowed to live as a member of the opposite sex is really entrenching a stereotype in a way that is more unhelpful to feminists than anyone else, in my view.

[RedStripeIassie]

If a woman had had a baby with the man who identified with a cat would the media have a field day reporting the first human cross species pregnancy?

[stealtheatingtunnocks]

Jelly, I don't have a problem with any individual. A pregnant person needs care. But, as pregnancy is only possible in an adult female it's ludicrous to refer to service users as anything other than a woman. Fair enough, have literature specific to the issues the handful of individuals who identify as male and are also pregnant, their needs are going to be wildly different to the rest of us.

I DO have a problem with services that women exclusively need being forced to accommodate a small number of individuals who, frankly, should not be there.

Specifically - prison. If a person has a penis, or has gone through male puberty, then that person should not be housed in a jail with female prisoners, even if that person has breasts, lipstick, skirts and "feels" like a woman.

[RacoonBandit]

The Sun probably would Red

[Crumbs1]

Marikarikovo - I see where you are coming from but I maintain my stance that unless you are genetically ambiguous. Then you are not 'a women' born in a mans body or vice versa. You are a woman dressing and identifying as a man. That's fine but let's not make it something it isn't. I find it quite concerning that the high suicide rate is attributed to the trans issues - it is certainly linked but not necessarily causative. It's just as likely ( if not more likely) that people who identify as trans have much higher rates of mental illness and that they seek palliation of mental ill health by whatever means may work - including being trans. It might just be that people likely to commit suicide are unhappy in several areas of their lives some of which (such as abuse, domestic violence and bullying) may be linked to gender.

[splendide]

That contradicts your last post Crumbs

Now it's "fine" to be a woman dressing and identifying as a man. In your previous post you said it was misguided to allow it. Still not sure what the alternative to misguidedly allowing it is.

[nannybeach]

Its NOT a trans man though, someone wanting their cake and eating it, wants to become a man, oh but hang on, lets have a baby first, if you REALLY want to trans good for you, fine, BUT you cannot keep the lady bits you want while convenient. I agree a female calling themself a man. Had the cheek to say its the NHS fault because they dont want a baby at the moment, well, 20 and unemployed, but the nasty NHS wont pay for eggs to be stored, boo hoo, £29.000 spent on hormones for transition process, maybe £15.000 for genital surgery, not a penny to have to contribute yourself. I want acres of land, to win the euro millions, cant have everything you want.