To hate the LTB brigade....

[crazydoglady6867]

I am continually shocked by the amount of time people are told to leave their partners on here. Is it just me that thinks a relationship is hard work and needs to be saved if there is any possibility.

I am constantly surprised at the low standards some women on here will put up with.

I read about men that go awol after drunken nights out, men that piss the bed because they're drunk, completely useless dads, men that think so little of their partners they can't buy them a thoughtful gift, lazy arse blokes that neither cook nor clean...not to mention the abusive, aggressive twats.

And there's often the drown trodden OP, making excuses for them.

It's easy to say LTB to a stranger, but I'm often incredulous that these crappy blokes are in a relationship to start with.

I disagree, Chardonnay, I think a lot of women honestly do not realise they can leave. Or rather, they do not feel they have the moral right to leave, or they do not believe they can cope alone, but it amounts to the same thing....they don't think they can leave. Many people are in awful situations of all kinds because they just forget or don't realise they have a choice and can change things. You've heard of us all being in prisons of our own construction, or words to that effect? That's what it means.

The very fact so many women post about such vile relationships asking for advice, when it's so bloody obvious they need to get out, shows how many people just don't realise they can leave. They're not stupid. They're human, and worn down.

Very often by the time a poster comes on here to post about an issue, it is the start of the scales falling from her eyes. Frequently too, it follows an escalation in behaviour.

What I really hate is the "don't leave, your relationship could be better if only you work harder at it. No. That is condoning abuse.

I also think that sometimes there is another side to the story, people post in a way that presents them in the best light and their partners in the worst, when it's clear there maybe something else going on and they are only partially giving the story. Many times when a marriage breaks down there is fault on both sides, but you seldom see that articulated on mumsnet.

Well, women are allowed their own opinion without their OH's input. Are you saying nobody should be allowed to post without the input of the other party? How would that work in reality? Of course there is another side but the side of the person posting for HELP is usually the one that needs it.

However I often see where there is another side - it is often picked up on by those that actually read the thread. And it is pointed out to the OP.

However I often see where there is another side - it is often picked up on by those that actually read the thread. And it is pointed out to the OP.

Oh, yes.

Abused women here more often than not tend to excuse their OHs rather than presenting them in a bad light.
The questions tend to be "what can I do about this?" It's further probing that uncovers the true extent and leads pps to tell the OP to LTB (sometimes even the bitch).

Something I read on here a while back stuck with me,the gist of which is that the world would be a better place if women stopped putting 100% of their effort into saving relationships with men who put less than half that effort back.
A woman cannot save a relationship all on her own and why should she? No one ltb on the sole basis that MN told them to - we just tell them that they can and give them practical advice on how to go about it.

""It think it's a bit patronising saying women don't realise they can leave.""

It's more that Women think that they should stay in the relationship and "work on it". It's asking the right questions, such as "why are you accepting that", rather than why didn't you leave (I've worked with families).

It doesn't occur to many Women that they deserve better and have options, because of their backgrounds, which society adds to.

I barely had spoken to a Woman who lived around the corner from me (or so I thought) and whose DD was friends with mine. She one day thanked me for helping her to see that she could leave her abusive DH I never once gave her advice, but I can remember telling her that she was worth more etc.

I'm amazed at the threads were an OP has only had a few dates, or it's been a few months and the red flags and bad behaviour is starting, but she's told to "give him another chance" and "hang on in there", I always point out that dating should be fun.

I think there are two ideas here that sort of sound alright on paper but when applied to real life are anti-women.

1. The idea that a heterosexual couple's relationship is a particularly valuable thing that should be "saved".

1. The idea that the above relationship not only will be hard work, but that it somehow should be hard work. Indeed that the hard work makes the relationship valuable.

I say these ideas are anti-women because in current sexist society, the expectation is for women to put the heavy lifting into relationship "work" (and indeed family work in general). Both ideas normalize abusive behaviour in relationships and the catering to and servicing of men's wants and moods by women and children.

A happy equal relationship in which both parties are sincere, kind, invested and healthy is not hard work. Life can be hard and throw things at us that are hard or hard work. Partnerships serve to support us through the bad times and enhance the good times.

Nine times out of ten when a relationship is described as hard work what is really being said is that the man in it is hard work.

It takes a lot for women to LTB, especially when there are children involved. I don't doubt for a second that the vast vast majority of these women will have put in plenty of hard work before getting out, so I wouldn't worry OP about the institution of The Couple too much.

YY Beachcomber.

One or two people advised me to leave when I posted about being unhappy about aspects of my marriage now that my husband had retired and my daughter was at university.

I was advised to go off and get a flat. Though other people gave different advice.

I suppose one issue is that I know that I do bring difficult and selfish and unreasonable behaviour to our relationship.

I had also posted that one issue that was on my mind was that I was low-waged. So in an era where good quality affordable housing was in short supply I am not sure where this flat I was going to would magically appear.

(I mean yes, if I was desperate I could draw on savings and divorce would leave me with something - but without dependent children who needed to be housed and without a decent job, my prospects wouldn't in the short-term be that great. It would really need a longer term plan about training in order to eventually get to a decent level of income. The sorts of choices people make in their early twenties. Except I'd have to make them three and a half decades later.)

So there are times when Leave the Bastard - who may simply be a flawed human being married to another flawed human being - is not terribly well-thought out advice.

Very few women are advised to LTB unless their OH sounds abusive, unfaithful, feckless or completely disengaged from family life. Why should anyone put up with those things?

"Unfortunately if you stand up to someone who is "shouty and bossy" you often find they turn into "pushy and shovy".
And if you stand up to this it can become 'stabby' and 'strangly'"

^this^

Women often feel they have to justify many times over their decision to finish a relationship.

Women often feel they have to get agreement that they are right to finish a relationship from the partner themselves.

Women are taught from birth that it's a women's role to create a family, and keep that family together by unquestioning personal sacrifice.

Women are told that they must work harder to make relationships work... and they don't tend to be told that it takes two to make a relationship work.

Work harder, sacrifice more, excuse and minimize, all'For the good of the family'. Except 2 families a week are missing the wife and/or mother. Murder isn't actually good for any family, is it?

Women need to have more positive cultural messages around their roles and expectations of relationships. They need to understand when a relationship is worth fighting for... and when it's really really not.

Mumsnet is a vital source of help for women in abusive relationships. It's a voice of clarity and expertise, and posters can often see the signs and patterns of abuse before those who have no experience of abuse. So, perhaps it seems like LTB comes very quickly sometimes. And yes, the occasional LTB does slip out early. But I'd rather that than be on a forum which seeks to keep the status quo, rather than challenge the belief that women must stay in unhealthy relationships, and sacrifice themselves in the process... sacrificing mentally, physically, emotionally, financially, for what exactly?

I love the reasoning earlier in this thread that women must stay and work at their relationships because... men get abused too. Errr. Quite.

So helpful for the women being abused. Jolly helpful for those men being abused too. Glad we sorted that out!

If the relationship is abusive, then I do think that the best advice is often (maybe always) to LTB, as the abuser is unlikely to change.

However, I agree with you OP, that sometimes posters do leap in with LTB for what appear often to be fixable problems in otherwise happy relationships.

Are not some of the LTB posts written with tongue in cheek though? I interpret many of them as not being intended to be taken seriously.

My experience in RL is that some relationships are truly toxic.

And then some relationships go wrong because both asking mistakes, in their ways of communicating, in their assumptions, in their expectations or very simply in the way they look at reality (I'm thinking here the well studied effect of men always over estimating the amount of work they are doing at home and women always underestimating the amount of work their are doing at home).

And then yes some people are just incompatible, but you do need to wonder why they then go together in the first lace, create a family etc...

If it was always an issue of 'this relationship is hard work therefore it's not worth saving', then there would be no need of counsellors TBH.
In reality, in MOST cases both parties need to have a look at their behaviours.
Which is great because actually it's also a way of growing and maturing and learning about yourself.

I think that on MN there is a disproportionate amount of women who are in truly abusive relationships.
Then you have some that are in what looks like an abusive relationship at the surface but are actually caught into a cycle of VERY bad reactions and anger from both sides. These could really do with counselling.
Knowing which one is what is impossible from a page on the internet.

But people CAN leave even when the relationship is not abusive as such.
And I think it's healthy that both partners keep that in mind.

Would love to hear your response to these well-thought-out posts, OP

Your response to me makes fuck all sense utteridiot. I didn't say you said that did I? I said you gave one example from two years ago. Which you did, did you not? Your username is very apt though, I'll give you that.

I think some people are too "LTB" happy, but others swing too hard the other way. Working on a relationship is a two way street, if one partner is miserable but the other is adamant on things staying the way they are, what other advice is there?

Don't think I've ever seen a ltb that I've felt was unwarranted. Perhaps those who think it's bandied about too often are used to accepting certain things in their own relationships which they shouldn't?

Spot on post Beachcomber.

If a relationship is more hard work than fun it's time to LTB! (My first ever one I think!)

People in abusive relationships are surrounded by others that tell them to stay. Family on both sides will advise them to work through it, talk, tough it out, men are like that, so-and-so's husband does that, your father was just like that when we were younger, it's what we women have to deal with, blah blah blah. Family of the abuser are very often not willing to admit that a member of their family is an abuser. Friends often are invested in the friendship group and don't want to see the relationships change or are unwilling to believe that it's really that bad. Strangers won't say anything unless it's abusive to an extreme degree in public.

Medical professionals? I spoke to FOUR of them. The first one told me that as women we cope with that. The second one told me that when they'd seen "D"H in appointments with me that he seemed fine and then basically dismissed it. The third one said she wasn't the one that dealt with domestic problems, that I had to make a separate appointment on another day and specifically talk to the GP that dealt with domestic abuse and THAT GP would help me. After receiving much support on MN, I left with the dcs. The fourth medical professional I spoke to after I'd left was supportive and immediately brought in social services. SS, however, then said "just make sure you let him see the dcs and it's your job to protect them" even knowing that the reason I left was because he was abusive towards both myself and the dcs. And that was the end of their involvement. They did nothing else.

So yes, sometimes it's helpful for women to hear that they CAN leave. God knows it wasn't presented as an option to me by anywhere except MN. And though I knew I needed to leave, I was feeling pressure from every angle to stay - family, friends, everyone. MN was the only place that actually was supportive and said "No, you can and should leave."