To not want to move to DH's home country?

[fannysatdawn]

We have 3DC, 10mo, 2 and 3. DH and I met and married in the U.K but he is originally from Egypt. The situation in Egypt was always very problematic (from 2011) and is not ideal now either for a family as a preference over England. We always agreed that if the situation improves we may consider having a house there when we retire. At the moment we go there 4 times a year for about 2 weeks to a month each time.

DH has suddenly decided he wants to move there now. He says he is having an identity crisis, feels separated from his homeland and he wants his children to feel they have Egyptian heritage.

This could not have come at a worse time for me. I have had severe PND since the birth of 3rd DC, I am in the wilderness of hormones and lack of adult company (I am a full time SAHM) and I too am having an identity crisis and DH fails to see that, just because it's not cultural or patriotic, it is the full time being a mum cliche.

My parents are very close to the DC as we live in England, they are a total saving grace for me because they offer me a lot of support where DH doesn't. DH feels that his parents do not get enough time with the DC (even though we spend about 4 -5 months a year with them.)

I am very torn because I believe in equality and treating both cultures the same and allowing them equal influence and weight in the DC's lives. But I feel I have already bent over backwards to accommodate DH's wishes. Eg we always holiday in Egypt and never go to any other country. All our free time is spent in Egypt. We are teaching the DC Arabic as well as English and I am learning Arabic. I have told DH's parents our house is an open house to them, even though they are not particularly nice to me and have made it clear they are angry DH married outside of his culture.

I asked DH if I refused whether it would be a deal breaker. He said it wouldn't end our marriage but he would feel that I would have "deprived our family of an experience essential to our health, growth and happiness." Which is basically opening things up to lay blame at my door for anything that might go wrong in the future.

What do you think?

Make sure you keep hold of your dcs passport. Your dh might just decide to go and take the dc with him

Having read this all through OP, I think you would be very sensible to get some expert legal advice on travelling there with your kids before doing it again. I'd be very very wary of even visiting now he's mentioned this. Is there a background reason why he's suddenly decided he wants to move there? Parents growing older, ill health or something?? Or is he getting pressure from them to return to the fold? Also, if you have daughters I'd be incredibly wary of taking them into a culture where women are treated like second class citizens...........

No way. Why would you even consider it? A country that practices apartheid against women and minorities and where you are likely to lose your children to your husband's family should you be unhappy and want to come home. The culture is extremely different and you wouldn't get the kind of equality of opportunity you get here. Also if you have a daughter she will be treated like a second class citizen, be married off and potential be forced to have FGM. Don't even consider it and hide their passports!

I'm absolutely staggered by the thinly (and not so thinly) veiled racism on this thread. Not every post, but many. I wonder whether these posters are the type who voted for Brexit on the grounds of immigration. Such a distasteful display of sensationalist ignorance of a different culture and people.

Smitff, would you take your children over and live there?

I think a lot of people are just being practical.

Egypt has a very different take on custody issues from the UK. If you live in Egypt with an Egyptian husband & your dc, you are in a seriously crap situation should the marriage break down.

That's not in any way a reflection on Egyptian men in my view. Some men (eg. my very English ex...) can behave appallingly if/when a marriage breaks down. Egyptian law is on their side. Consequences for a non-egyptian mother are pretty dire.

It's definitely something to be aware of. I don't see it as racist. The Egyptian men I know are no more or less lovely to their wives than anyone else. But that power imbalance is embedded in the culture.

I have to agree that there are a lot of very prejudiced and stereotypical posts on this thread and feel people would not be advising like they are if the op was talking about a home sick Australian or Japanese man. All this talk about abduction, Egypt being a hole and mil wisking dd off for fgm.
I have advised the op not to go as the country is unstable at the moment, mainly financially and also the education prospects are much better in the UK for both boys and girls.

There is no racism on this thread. None. Call it out if you see it.

There are people speaking very plainly about their distaste for aspects of Egyptian culture, values and cultural practices. That's not racism.

Nor is it racist to understand your rights and position in another country - all very well if you are happy in a relationship - but not when things go sour -

Woman have fought for generations for equality - it has a long way to go - why give that up?

Smitff my advice is based on actual knowledge of the country and experience of living there and being married an Egyptian. I have to say a lot of the difficulties a woman can encounter are true if you marry anyone who is a different nationality, have kids and then break up. I know a woman stuck in Germany because she married a German, had kids and separated. She can't take them to live in England. It's something to bear in mind if you are considering settling abroad

Smitff
Do you have children with someone from a country where Father's rights are more likely to be protected. Where if your DC have dual nationality you might not be able to leave with them.
Where, despite what one poster thinks, your prospect of meaningful consular assistance is nil.
A country where a large number of women have suffered FGM.
A country so unstable and politically unpleasant my North African Muslim DH refuses to go there.

I would be interested to know how many on the thread have actually lived in Egypt for any amount of time other than a short holiday and actually known and mixed with Egyptian people. Like Best thing said, the same can be said about marrying someone from virtually any other country with regards to the international custody battles.

Besides anything else, I could not raise my daughters in a country where they're second class citizens and my sons were taught to treat women as second class citizens.

I won't even go on holiday to those places.

I should add that my DC have dual nationality and I am fully aware that if DH had an acrimonious split I might have to take rapid action to make sure the DC couldn't leave the country.

I'm not sure it's racism, but definitely ignorance in some cases, especially comparisons to Iran. The equivalent would be someone from a different part of the world advising someone on travelling (let's just say for holiday) to the UK and basing all their advice on info from their trip to France. There are general similarities, from the outside, perhaps, but actually they're very different.

But that's not racism, it's ignorance.

As is the assumption (I'm not sure if OP mentioned religion or not, I missed it if so) that her DP is Muslim. 10-30% of Egyptians are Christian. Saying that, I'm not sure of any Copt in their right mind who'd be looking to move back at the moment...

I have to agree that there are a lot of very prejudiced and stereotypical posts on this thread and feel people would not be advising like they are if the op was talking about a home sick Australian or Japanese man.

And you can't think of any reasons other than prejudice and stereotyping why people might make criticisms of Egypt that wouldn't be applicable to Japan or Australia? Even with the latter having left some non-national parents in difficult positions.

Egypt is not perfect Silent, I never said it was, but it is not the 7th circle of hell that some are making out. I know of many very happy long inter racial marriages there.

It's not racist to dislike legalised misogyny and widespread FGM.

I'm very glad the OP is staying put in the UK.

That's great pinkmagic but doesn't answer my question. Which is, can you really not think of any other reasons why people might think there are things to criticise Egypt for, that don't apply in Japan or Australia?

pink
Does this sound like a happy interracial marriage to you?
This is why I do think the concerns are valid in this case. The OP's in-laws aren't supportive, she has PND and her DH is pressurising her to move against her better judgment.

I'm not sure it's racism, but definitely ignorance in some cases, especially comparisons to Iran. The equivalent would be someone from a different part of the world advising someone on travelling (let's just say for holiday) to the UK and basing all their advice on info from their trip to France. There are general similarities, from the outside, perhaps, but actually they're very different.

Actually, in the context of this thread and what matters most, ie.

1. the way in which religion impacts on and influences culture, and

2. the OP's human and legal rights as a woman and a mother, England and France are really not that different from one another at all.

And neither are Egypt and Iran.

I think it is a good idea to read the Koran if your dh is muslim and also look at forums for muslim wives that are available.

Your mil will expect great respect from you and will expect you to look after her and do her bidding. To be a good muslim wife it is important that you recognise your dh is the head of the household and even though there is a saying in Egypt about the mother/wife being Boss it is more of a joke.

Your dh's family and friends would jeer at your dh if he thought you had more say in the marriage than he did sso that alone might make him feel emasculated.

If you are married to a muslim man it makes sense to understand what sort of advice Imans on islamic forums feel about feminists, the role of the wife/mother/duties etc. Have you had that discussion?

A muslim wife is foremost encouraged to put her dh first in everything and and there are plenty of happy muslim marriages that work.

It is probably a good idea to have a chat now with your dh about your roles as divorce is hugely frowned upon by the koran and the strength of the family seen as all important.

It is better to have a sit down chat first as you both sound unhappy and I think your dh sounds in a bad place too and I hope you both can find a way forward x

There has been a lot of considered, practical advice to do with political instability, Egypt's economy, education, and also the OP's PND and needing a support network around her. I think all of this is valuable and solid advice.

I absolutely believe that assumptions about the OP's DH and his background (bearing in mind the OP has said nothing about either of them other than what is in the first post) are behind the following sorts of comments (taken from the first half of the thread, gave up after a bit). The assumptions bely a distinct racist thread (racism being, for example, "a belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races").

"You will have very few rights as a woman in Egypt" - really? Is this a fact, one perhaps confused with fewer or lesser (different?) rights compared to the U.K.?

"It's almost as though he's keeping you barefoot and pregnant to manipulate you..." - where on earth has this come from? I see nothing in the opening post that doesn't require a huge amount of extrapolation to reach this conclusion. You'd only say this if you assume this is what Egyptian men do, habitually (not just occasionally).

"A friend's father didn't manage to take her to his country in the Middle East as a preteen [etc etc...]". Would this Middle Eastern country be Israel, or just a predominantly Muslim ME country?

Multiple flights of fancy of the DH taking his own children to Egypt without the OP and not bringing him back. Where has this come from?! Again you'd only think this if you thought this is what Egyptian men do habitually.

Multiple recommendations that the OP hide the DC's passports - again, what evidence do you have that this might be necessary? Would you say such a thing if the DH were German or a New Zealander in the first post, and not Egyptian?

Assumption that his parents are chipping away at home behind the scenes - once again, you'd only say this if you assumed all Egyptian or Muslim PILs do such things. Stereotyping again.

"If you do, you will never make another decision again. You won't chose the bread you eat" - I mean, seriously?!

"Your children will grow up with values alien to you" - of course they will! And? They are half Egyptian! As much Egyptian as they are British! The OP chose to marry an Egyptian man and have children with them! Are they not being brought up with values as much alien to the DH?

"You will never bring your children back" - again, where to begin with such a sweeping statement...?

"I would start storing the passports at your parents' house" - as above.

"In your place I would get legal advice about getting your children made wards of court, after giving their passports to your parents" - please, what in the OP would indicate that such a drastic step would be necessary or even advisable? I can only assume a racist assumption is behind this train of thought.

"Maybe the in laws have found him a second wife, that's why he is keen to go back" - FFS. Stereotype much?

"Your female children will be subjected to forced genital mutilation against your will, for a start" - pls see above definition of racism.

And so on and so forth. Why the frothiness about an accusation of racism? If the posters of these comments stand behind them, they should own them - why would they not want to be accused of being racist when this is patently what these statements are. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and nobody can have it both ways: either make such statements and believe in them and their consequences, or if you don't believe in them don't make them.

For those who have asked, no I would not move to Egypt with my children for all the practical, sensible reasons given by many posters. Yes, I live in my DH's home country and my DC are of his nationality; if we divorce I would not be able to take them back home to the U.K. without his permission. I live in the US and my children are American. Finally, I am not Muslim.

Tenshi what makes you think the OP is a Muslim wife? Her husband Mau be a Muslim, she Mau not. Whether divorce is frowned on it not I hope he OP will do what is best for her.

i don't see any racism on this thread. i just see yet another arsehole trying to do a number on a woman

as an asian woman, i've seen a lot of this kind of manipulation.
Guys who put on a good front of being 'liberal' until they get married/have dc - and then you see who they really are.
Their ultimate agenda is to convert you, and if not you then the dc, into doing things their way.
The patriarchal bullshit is deeply conditioned into them.

When did compromise turn into appeasement?
It isn't yours or your dc responsibility to appease his parents for him marrying 'out'
Did you agree that your entire annual holiday budget would be spent on visiting his family every year for the rest of your life ?

He's deliberately keeping yours and dc world small so it's easier to manipulate you.
He's limiting your dc exposure/experience of other cultural norms so that his takes precedence.
Teaching your dc to be bilingual - great; but you never agreed to moving them to a country where it's the main language.

He knows you have pnd but he doesn't care. It means you're more vulnerable to his manipulation.
Ditto with knowing you would lose ALL your support.
He knows his mum doesn't like you, probably will never accept you, so you would be all alone except for him.
No doubt he will agree with everything his mummy says

are you raising your dc in their fathers faith op?
what are his views on parenting for as the children grow older?