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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

settle an argument?

206 replies

myoriginal3 · 11/12/2016 17:30

Where was Jesus from?
I know he was born in Bethlehem. Is that in Israel?
I also know he was reared in Nazareth wherever that is.
But where was Mary fleeing from?
Who told herod about her pregnancy
And dh wants to know what Jesus surname was. I have suggested Christ

OP posts:
Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 16:38

assumed to be Jospeh's child

That's why Joseph's geneaology was incorporated into the gospels.

I don't think the rules ever provided for immaculate conceptions. Grin

Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 17:05

About Jesus' paternity...

Religious education in UK grammar schools used to teach that Joseph was an "old man," implying that Joseph was not Jesus' father...

Original poster
myoriginal3 · 12/12/2016 17:10

Which begs the question... Who was his father?

OP posts:
Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 17:14

immaculate conception Wink

KickAssAngel · 12/12/2016 19:19

no - Mary was the immaculate conception. There's a wiki page on it.

here

Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 19:55

Thanks Angel, I wasn't familiar with the doctrine.

BigBangTheory789 · 12/12/2016 22:25

In Islam (please correct me if I'm wrong anyone else but this is what I believe and have been taught)...

We believe that before the crucifixion took place, God resurrected Jesus and changed the face of one of the robbers to look like him and so the robber ended up being crucified instead of Jesus... Therefore Jesus never died...

He is the second most important and loved Prophet in Islam, Jesus will come back as a Muslim and bring the true word of Islam again with Him. To us Jesus never died, he is a Prophet of God and respected as such. He did not have a father, but was blessed to Bibi Mariam (Virgin Mary) in the purest way. I know many do not believe in Jesus and Christmas is sadly no longer a religious festival but has become commercial but though we do not celebrate Christmas as Muslims, we love Jesus as much as the christians who celebrate him do xx

Also, as a Muslim, I love Christmas!! I love the sense of family, getting together and eating until you're in a food coma. It's pretty much what we do at Eid too so we just have an extra day of doing it at Christmas!!

#completelyofftopicnow

SaltyBitch · 12/12/2016 23:41

Your Christmas (and Eid) sound lovely BigBang!

pklme · 13/12/2016 08:15

Officially, God as the Holy Spirit was his Father. It's a bit complicated though, what with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being both one and separate. So Jesus (who is God) existed before he was born. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (who is God).
TBH, the theology of it is really convoluted, and developed about 300-400 years later to explain all the things they knew/believed about him. I can't help thinking its a bit like a science hypothesis- a theory which fits all the things we know, but will change as we know more.
There is a day in the church calendar called Trinity Sunday where preachers across the world get their knickers in a twist trying to explain the inexplicable!

Personally I leave that part of it to professor types who enjoy the speculation and argument!

samG76 · 13/12/2016 08:46

Thanks to you, KAA, I have learnt something today!

FlappysMammyAndPopeInExile · 13/12/2016 12:50

We believe that before the crucifixion took place, God resurrected Jesus

Must be a translation error here, Big Bang. If Jesus hadn't died (on the cross or elsewhere), then he could not be resurrected. Resurrection is bringing back to life.

I agree that it is very sad that to most people Christmas is now just a greediest and seems to have lost all religious significance. (Not in our house, though).

pklme I agree that the Trinity is one of the most difficult concepts to try to explain. I have heard some utter sh!te explanations in the past (e.g." You know how you are a son to your mother, husband to your wife, father to your children " sort of cr@p and I've just wanted to stand up a scream "Nooooooooooooo! It's not that at all you tw@t! Not remotely! That is one person with three roles, NOT three persons in one being, FFS!"

I've tried to explain the Trinity before (to myself as much as to anyone else) and it is incredibly convoluted - I think we just have to accept that NOTHING is impossible for God.

I think (and I'm ready to be shot down in flames by those with greater knowledge) that one metaphor might be of identical triplets. They are the same substance/genetic make-up/DNA, but each is a different individual with a different job to do (in the family firm Grin - they're all working to the same purpose).

userformallyknownasuser1475360 · 13/12/2016 13:06

The Trinity theory is where the Irish Shamrock comes from. It is alleged that St Patrick used the Shamrock to describe 3 leaves of one plant, same as three Gods in one.

Original poster
myoriginal3 · 13/12/2016 13:27

Patrick used the shamrock to try to explain the trinity lol.

OP posts:
lurkinghusband · 13/12/2016 13:27

Of course the Trinity (many gods) also allows Christianity to appeal to polytheistic religions - especially when you factor in all the Saints so beloved of Catholics ...

Anyway "Christmas" - or the festival Christians appropriated for Christmas - has much deeper antecedents as the almost universal celebration of the end of winter/start of spring. It's interesting to think our pagan forbears would recognise it today ....

userformallyknownasuser1475360 · 13/12/2016 13:43

Most Christian religious iconography has roots in previous religious beliefs i.e. Easter is the festival of Ostera, the pagan goddess of spring.

lurkinghusband · 13/12/2016 14:08

And Christ with the halo is Sol Invictus ...

KickAssAngel · 13/12/2016 14:30

To those thanking me about the immaculate conception - I first heard it on Mumsnet.

The trinity is almost exactly the opposite of the 'you're a wife, and a mother' type explanations.

God the father is like the mystical out of the world creator of everything.
God the spirit is like the messenger with humans. He can communicate through dreams and signs.
God the son was the physical embodiment of God, and therefore could eat and speak etc directly.

It's a bit like a movie that you can see in different formats. First it's at the cinema so it's out there, but you can't own/touch it, just watch it and be in awe. Then you could stream it, so you can re-watch it, then you could buy the DVD and actually be able to touch it. Not the best analogy, but the nearest I can think of.

HairsprayBabe · 13/12/2016 14:43

As a child I thought Jesus' surname was "Christ"

not helpful

Wafiwa · 13/12/2016 15:13

I first heard it on Mumsnet.

Love it.^

I'm more interested in Mary Magdeline- was always taught by my gran that she was Jesus' wife as she was taught this by the convent where she was raised. Yet this isn't a commonly held belief & the first I read anything to support this was a Dan Brown novel. could there be a reason why this was still being taught in christian convents up to the 1930s?

Daily, I am fascinated by this story.

lurkinghusband · 13/12/2016 15:16

I always wondered that "Christ" is suspiciously close to "-chist"; the ancient Greek suffix for leader (hence "ana"-chist meaning "without leaders").

Especially when you know the NT was written in Greek (so already one step removed from the events of the time ...)

samG76 · 13/12/2016 17:32

If you are looking for interesting theories, there is one that the Bethlehem in the story isn't the one in Judea but rather Bethlehem ba-galil (in the Galilee). This makes a lot more sense, as it could be reached from Nazareth very easily, and doesn't require a women who is full term to manage a week long journey on a donkey!

Gutted2016 · 13/12/2016 18:01

I really like the cut of your jib lurkinghusband

To google!

PetraDelphiki · 13/12/2016 18:23

My understanding is that a "mamzer" is the child of two people who are not free to marry ...so an adulterous union or one forbidden for another reason e.g. a Cohen (priest) cannot marry a divorced woman so even if both were unmarried the child would be a mamzer. Children born out of wedlock aren't as long as the parents could have married.

It's more complicated than simple bastardy though - Wikipedia has a good summary...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamzer

FlappysMammyAndPopeInExile · 13/12/2016 19:25

I always wondered that "Christ" is suspiciously close to "-chist"; the ancient Greek suffix for leader

lurkinghusband

You are probably right about the etymological connection - "Christ" means "anointed", and kings/rulers were anointed with oils to signify their authority (and that God/gods had authorised their power)

samG76 · 14/12/2016 09:50

Petra - I don't think the offspring of a priest/divorcee relationship is a mamzer. In any case, there are so many get-out clauses that it applies very rarely nowadays, if it ever did.

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