settle an argument?

[myoriginal3]

Where was Jesus from?
I know he was born in Bethlehem. Is that in Israel?
I also know he was reared in Nazareth wherever that is.
But where was Mary fleeing from?
Who told herod about her pregnancy
And dh wants to know what Jesus surname was. I have suggested Christ

Jesus ben David

This one's had me puzzled since childhood: Why is Jesus' genealogy traced through Joseph? Joseph was descended from King David, but according to the gospels, Joseph wasn't Jesus' father.

Anyone?

I think Flumpy might be leading up to this

Surely the history of such distant times is unlikely to be correct.

It would have been written by scholars who would probably have had their own agendas, political or otherwise, so who's to say what they were writing was the truth? And even if they set down what actually happened at the time, it would always be from their own perspectives; no one is truly impartial.

It's wise not to believe what you read in the papers that are written now, let alone something that's been passed down from so long ago.

It's been translated from language to language - originally Aramaic I imagine - and must certainly have lost and gained an awful lot along the way.

And anyway, there is so much rubbish written about what was supposed to have happened - virgin birth, anyone - why would anyone accept any of it as 'gospel'.

Cue Audience

Today on the Jeremy Kyle show we have Mary and Joseph, Joseph thinks that Mary here cheated on him 9 months ago, Mary says God did it, join us after the break for the all important DNA test

there is so much rubbish written about what was supposed to have happened - virgin birth, anyone

According to my Greek teacher, the term "parthena" just mean a "young woman" - virgin or otherwise. all it signified was that Mary was unmarried at the time of conception. It was later translators who insisted on virginity n the sense that we know it. There is nothing to suggest that Jesus' contemporaries regarded his birth as having occurred in anything but the usual way. (FWIW I don't myself - to me it is the resurrection which is the decider.)

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

nothing to suggest that Jesus' contemporaries regarded his birth as having occurred in anything but the usual way

I'm guessing Joseph was the dad and Mary was telling porkies.

In our House, his name is Jesus H Christ

No Flappy I wasn't saying there was a suggestion that the idea of the virgin birth was from ancient writing. In fact I was taught that the idea of the virgin birth was an early Victorian invention - Mary being an unmarried mother and all.

But that's my point in a way, so much has been added and no doubt taken away during the many translations and over the huge period of time, that no one really knows when it was actually written and how correct those writings are.

It could all have been written hundreds of years after it's supposed to have been written and indeed it could all be a work of complete fiction cobbled together over a long period of time.

I'm so Interested and impressed by the level of scholarship here and the patient and fascinating way questions have been answered, from the basic to the more complex.

Hope it isnt too off topic but i was struck by op saying - google is hard to use and the credibility of sites hard to verify. And this even for such straightforward info as where is Nazareth, where is Jesus said to have come from, etc.

I've long thought that there should be a lot more attention placed in our education system on how to investigate whether sources are biased or more reliable. Even more so now (trump/brexit etc)...

Otherwisw how are those without a broad general knowledge meant to increase their knowledge, if they don't trust/believe any information?

Eggy - I think the same about education generally.

On the religious stuff I struggle a lot. I'm a fairly new Christian and have a PhD in law but struggle with being able to evaluate history texts on religion let alone theology works.
There are so many layers upon layers of interp on top of the accounts of this man's life and what it means.
My faith seems to come from somewhere else but it'd be good to find decent books to read. And the Internet is even worse for this

Haven't read the whe thread but I'm guessing his last name would be carpenter because of his step fathers profession and his later on.

Jesus H Corbett

Upthread - there should be a lot more attention placed in our education system on how to investigate whether sources are biased or more reliable.

There is. It's the history curriculum across all key stages, and it is very good, and very challenging, a difficult gcse.

I have a history gcse and a level from more than 20 years ago. And it was good but we focused on 19th century onwards. But hen it comes to much older texts I don't know how to evaluate of how much evidence I should expect of a claim. Or even how to see bias when I have such limited understanding of the context in which something was written.

Yes the same NT Greek word is used for virgin and young, unmarried woman.
The need for Mary to be 'free of sin' led to the current understanding of virgin birth, if I remember correctly.
If Jesus is not biologically the some of Joseph, he is still 'from the house of David', partly because he is born into the household of a sone of David, and possibly because Mary is likely to be from the house of David too, as it would have been culturally desirable for a match to be between two descendants from the same house- a distant cousin would have been seen as a good choice for a match.

To be honest, the detailed historical accuracy of the bible is not key for me, for all the reasons mentioned up thread.
For me it is a living faith, relying on a personal experience and reflection. I can't testify to the literal truth of the details, just that living as though the broad message is true makes sense in my life.

Curious...

The Messiah must be a descendant of King David. Jesus Christ's claim to that lineage was through Joseph. Doesn't the Immaculate Conception disqualify Jesus from being Messiah?

it is a living faith

Spot on pkime. Living and personal.

Janteloven Provocative - but you've forgotten Mary again, who, as a PP stated, was likely to have been a cousin of Joseph.

you've forgotten Mary again, who, as a PP stated, was likely to have been a cousin of Joseph.

Well not really, because there's no historical evidence such a person ever existed : www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/18/did-historical-jesus-exist-the-traditional-evidence-doesnt-hold-up/?utm_term=.feb4189bfd6c

Thank you, PopeInExile.

Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic belief that Mary had no original sin and wasn't tempted to sin. Doctrine of Virgin Birth is that she conceived Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit and not through sex.

If Jesus is not biologically the some of Joseph, he is still 'from the house of David', partly because he is born into the household of a sone of David, and possibly because Mary is likely to be from the house of David too, as it would have been culturally desirable for a match to be between two descendants from the same house- a distant cousin would have been seen as a good choice for a match.

Just typing exactly this.

Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic belief that Mary had no original sin and wasn't tempted to sin

And don't you just love it that the procreation method that God designed* is considered a sin by many people? ()

• Or evolution, if you are an atheist

Actually, Mary was the important person in Jesus' genealogy, because in Judaism, the faith passes via the matriarchal line (despite it being a patriarchal society).

"Whatever is born of a Jew, is a Jew' (Can't remember where that is from, but it does refer to the mother not the father.)