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AIBU?

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Original poster

settle an argument?

206 replies

myoriginal3 · 11/12/2016 17:30

Where was Jesus from?
I know he was born in Bethlehem. Is that in Israel?
I also know he was reared in Nazareth wherever that is.
But where was Mary fleeing from?
Who told herod about her pregnancy
And dh wants to know what Jesus surname was. I have suggested Christ

OP posts:
lurkinghusband · 12/12/2016 14:09

The nativity is probably the most basic of all the biblical stories and yet it still isn't told coherently or consistently even in it's primary source.

If you like a laugh (depending on SOH) Richard Herrings is well worth a spin. Very thoroughly researched, and completely demolishes any pretensions that the Bible is in any way definitive. (Despite the provocative title, it's a thoughtful and respectful look at Christianity).

The main suggestion is that the New Testament was back-written so that Jesus "fulfilled" the prophecies.

Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 14:21

And the missing gospels surely can't have added any coherence or presumably they'd have made it in.

Perhaps they didn't suit the political agenda.

lurkinghusband · 12/12/2016 14:28

And the missing gospels surely can't have added any coherence or presumably they'd have made it in.

Perhaps they didn't suit the political agenda.

Or just plain contradicted it. 2016 hasn't finished yet, but the Brexit narrative has already been set in stone. You already know what the schools will be teaching in 20 years time.

"Christianity" has been redefined many times since the alleged birth of Christ (e.g. Henry VIII) ... to be honest it's not really about a deep search for a spiritual meaning in a world of wonder, and more a social club for people who like to mix with other people who think (and more importantly) look like them.

Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 14:42

a deep search for a spiritual meaning

Jesus Christ is arguably the most influential person who has ever lived.

The details of his life and teachings matter.

samG76 · 12/12/2016 14:46

Siblings - this happens in your imagination and nowhere else. But why hijack a thread on Jesus, especially as the only place in middle East where Christians can practise their faith publicly and safely is Israel.....?

Gutted2016 · 12/12/2016 14:47

What was the documentary User? I might give that a watch!

lurkinghusband · 12/12/2016 14:53

The details of his life and teachings matter.

Only if people follow them ...

userformallyknownasuser1475360 · 12/12/2016 14:55

Yes it was gutted was called patterns of evidence

Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 14:56

Only if people follow them ...

If only to understand what they're following.

FlappysMammyAndPopeInExile · 12/12/2016 15:28

One of the theories is that they were not, not even a little bit. The reason Jesus had such influence from such a young age was because they were actually a reasonably wealthy family. There some crossover in the language between the words for "carpenter" and "architect" or "civil engineer", which casts rather a different light on Joseph's annual income, right?

Agree with this. Unlikely that Jesus was a "daily wage" labourer. He was obviously educated and had the leisure time (and financial support) to study the Torah. He was also (as far as we are aware) unmarried. This in itself was unusual in that culture at that time. It would have been consistent with Jesus being considered "illegitimate" even though Joseph had accepted him as his son and given him a name. No respectable Jew would consider marrying his daughter to a "manner". In Judaism the child remains illegitimate even if the parents marry (unlike English Law), and if it was believed that Joseph was his natural father, then he would have been considered legitimate even if conception took place during the betrothal period.

I have often wondered if Jesus' empathy with the poor and rejected of society came from the fact that he himself had been the butt of bullying because of his parentage.

But re: Herod and the "slaughter of the innocents", I'm sure it is documented somewhere, but that there weren't hundreds (or even tens) of children. (Sorry - I haven't the reference to hand but I'll have a look to see where I got the idea is was documented from). The suggestion is that at most half a dozen children would have been involved (not that even one makes it alright) - bear in mind that Bethlehem wasn't a town in the sense that we know it. There would have been a tiny population in modern terms and infant mortality was huge.

BigBangTheory789 · 12/12/2016 15:41

Jesus was born to the virgin Mary, Joseph was not his father... Though he is a Prophet and not the son of God. I know we have differing views on this, but within Islam we love Jesus too and he is highly regarded to us. He will be resurrected as Muslim and we do not believe he was crucified.

He was born in modern day Palestine x

samG76 · 12/12/2016 15:48

Flappys - What you say about illegitimacy isn't right. There is and was far less stigma to illegitimacy in Judaism that in, say, Christianity - think of all the people going to nunneries to give birth and having their kids forcibly adopted.

What you call a "manner" is probably a "mamzer", but it's not a child born to an unmarried mother, but rather the product of an adulterous liaison, eg where the mother was married to someone other then the father. At a time before DNA testing, a provable mamzer would have been quite a rare occurrence.

ChickenLicken22 · 12/12/2016 15:54

Yes they both exist. Nazareth is really worth a visit, some beautiful churches. Bethlehem, not so much IMO. Over 10 years ago though, might have improved. An easy day trip from Jerusalem which again is very interesting.

Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 15:55

not the son of God

Bigbang - "Christians did not worship Jesus as God until the fourth century."

www.dearephesus.org/blog/2013/01/21/did-christians-always-worship-jesus

Original poster
myoriginal3 · 12/12/2016 15:58

I'd love to visit those cities.

OP posts:
Original poster
myoriginal3 · 12/12/2016 16:01

What does Islam teach with regards to his death?

Complete side note but we were taught that you didn't put an apostrophe after Jesus name. Don't ask me why. I'll try to google to see whether there is any basis in truth for this one!

OP posts:
FlappysMammyAndPopeInExile · 12/12/2016 16:04

sam
What you call a "manner" is probably a "mamzer"

Dead right - I hadn't realised that autocorrect had had it's evil way with it.

No - I stand by the "illegitimacy", though I should perhaps have described it as being the child of parents who were not married to each other. And very Orthodox Jews have the same condemnation of it. Though Jews have never culturally felt that any child should be abandoned, exposed to the elements or just plain murdered, which happened to unwanted children in many cultures.

Original poster
myoriginal3 · 12/12/2016 16:05

Ok. I seem to have gotten the apostrophe thing wrong.

OP posts:
FlappysMammyAndPopeInExile · 12/12/2016 16:05

we were taught that you didn't put an apostrophe after Jesus name

Even when it was a possessive i.e. something belonging to Jesus? I've never heard of that.

Original poster
myoriginal3 · 12/12/2016 16:07

My googling skills are lacking but the results have confused me more.

OP posts:
samG76 · 12/12/2016 16:08

Flappy - I accept that as in many cultures it would have been and still is considered bad form to have a child while unmarried, but the child wouldn't be a mamzer - this is a technical term for a particular case, which doesn't apply when the mother is unmarried.

FlappysMammyAndPopeInExile · 12/12/2016 16:14

Sam - but Mary was married - to Joseph. And if she fell pregnant during her betrothal period, that was considered as good as a marriage. many couples had a sexual relationship when betrothed because it was considered as binding as a marriage contract.

Original poster
myoriginal3 · 12/12/2016 16:19

Was Mary married to Joseph?

what was I doing while attending weekly mass for twenty years

OP posts:
samG76 · 12/12/2016 16:23

Flappys - I accept that having a child by someone else while betrothed could lead to a question of mamzerut, but it would have been assumed to be Jospeh's child, and therefore not a mamzer. I don't think the rules ever provided for immaculate conceptions.

userformallyknownasuser1475360 · 12/12/2016 16:26

bgbangtheory

How does Islam believe Jesus died?

I only ask because I think the biblical version of Jesus being nailed to the cross whereas two robbers weren't, is a bit harsh given he was supposedly blaspheming.