settle an argument?

[myoriginal3]

Where was Jesus from?
I know he was born in Bethlehem. Is that in Israel?
I also know he was reared in Nazareth wherever that is.
But where was Mary fleeing from?
Who told herod about her pregnancy
And dh wants to know what Jesus surname was. I have suggested Christ

Diedre

I thought there was the Josephus (a Jewish text) and the Tacitus (a roman text). I'm not massive expert but I hsve been reading a mainstream historian on the history of Christianity (Diarmaid MacCulloch) and thought he'd noted that the historicity of jesus was broadly accepted among historians. That's very different from taking the gospel accounts as literal truths even on just the facts of jesus' life. But I just read these things 'for fun' so may have mixed up the books.

Dierdre

The gospels were written decades if not longer after jesus died, there is no roman record of him or his deeds.

I can't remember now whether it was my obnoxious Divinity teacher or my even more obnoxious Latin teacher who told me that there's more contemporary evidence for Jesus and his deeds than there is for Julius Caesar and his.

Both teachers were apparently highly respected scholars teaching at a well known independent school and I've always assumed that what I was taught there was correct. I've no real interest in Jesus or Julius Caesar so I've never really thought about it though.

I understood that Eusebius added to Josephus account. Josephus had merely said that there was a prophet named Jesus who was brought before Pilate (and at that time prophets were ten a penny - you couldn't throw a brick without knocking three of them off their soapboxes) - Eusebius was thought to have elaborated the text to include detail that pointed to divinity.

But I'm not a theological scholar so I am happy to bow to those who have studied the texts in depth.

Tacitus is also mentioned a lot and again disproved because the same passage appears in the writings of Selpicious Servurus (I think thats right, my brain hurts trying to remember this stuff lol almost word for word but with additions its then passed off as tacitu's writings.

Philo of Alexandria who wrote a lot about the goings on in Palestine and mentioned a lot of the 'messiah' that were around at that time but didnt mention Jesus

One of the problems with that Flappy is that Josephus was a Jew and would not of refered to jesus as 'the christ' 'the truth' as he does in that 1 small addition. It was Tacitus that said the stuff about Pilate but again has been disproved

Sorry I'm being so obnoxious its like finally a subject I can actually answer in AIBU

Flappy there has been some suggestion that the reference in Josephus' work is something added later as the fact there is no other contemporary reference was noticeable.

I did actually come across a theory that Jesus was actually the grandson of Herod.

It's on record that the then Roman emperor was friends with Herod's son Antipater and decreed that Antipater (and his line) was to inherit the throne when Herod died. Herod's sister Salome favoured another son of Herod and with this other son faked a plot against Herod, laying the blame at Antipater's door.

The ensuing blood bath saw Antipater and his existing children killed, but Antipater's wife, Mariamne (ie Mary) disappears from the historical record. It's believed Mariamne was descended from David.

The theory I mentioned suggests she could easily have been pregnant when she disappeared and gone into hiding. Her family did apparently come from the Nazareth area and likely ahd links with the Essene sect, whose teachings were very similar to those of Jesus. When Jesus is being questioned by Pilate, his claim to be King of the Jews isn't disputed, and under the original Roman decree, a son of Antipater could still inherit, the decree hadn't been rescinded. It's also suggested in this theory that Pilate quietly allowed Jesus to be executed on trumped up charges, as otherwise Pilate would have had to give up power to Jesus if his claim was allowed.

Seems a plausible theory and fits the known facts of the time.

For people saying 'it's Israel or Palestine, depending on your politics' - that really, really isn't how it works.

Bethlehem is in the West Bank. Israel doesn't claim it is part of Israel. The West Bank is under military occupation by Israel- everyone accepts this- but what that means depends where you are: in Bethlehem, the Palestinian authority run the local police, schools, everything. The Israeli army are a military presence but Israel doesn't claim that territory. They don't want to: if that many Palestinians became citizens of Israel and had voting rights it could ultimately lead to a Jewish minority.

Nazereth is in modern-day Israel, but has a predominantly Palestinian population. The difference here is the Palestinians are citizens of Israel, and the services, roads, etc etc are provided by Israel. You have to go through significant checkpoints to get to the West Bank.

I've been to Bethlehem: I find it strange how much our media fails to actually get across the fairly simple facts of that conflict and what it means for people day-to-day.

Related: I too think it's pretty clear there was a historical figure called Jesus of Nazareth. Whether he was a snake oil salesmen, a cult leader, one of many prophets (as the Muslims believe) or the son of god (as the Christians do) is a matter of debate, but he was a real person, not an myth.

Dont even get me started on the Celestial Teapot lol

I've been to Bethlehem. It's very tacky and touristy with locals selling little Jesus ornaments etc to tourists.

I didn't go on a religious trip or anything though. We were in Israel on holiday and thought we'd visit due to the history etc.

Raspberry isnt that theory derived from the writings of Tacitus which later were disproved

but he was a real person, not an myth.

Nope

For people saying 'it's Israel or Palestine, depending on your politics' did anyone say that?

I just said it was an historical difference...

I believe Jesus was from the house of David.

He would have been Jesus ben David, ben being 'son of, or from that clan' .

They didn't have sur names in quite the same format as today.

AnotherPoster You aren't being obnoxious at all! I love to learn about this sort of stuff (or any sort of stuff TBH - I just find most things interesting). If you have studied Classics you will know a lot more that me about these writings. - And I agree that Josephus would never have referred to Jesus in terms of "Christ" (which is Greek, anyway), but I didn't think he did. I thought that he had just mentioned him as a minor prophet (and not attached any importance to him, other than that he was a rabble-rouser.)

Raspberry - The possible Herod connection is very interesting. I've never heard of that possibility before. I doubt that Pilate would have felt that he had to give up authority, but certainly if a claimant to the throne appeared it would have provided a focus for (even more) civil unrest. (I know you've said it was disproved AnotherPoster, but I do like to have a look into things, if only so I can write them off.)

I will have to do some digging.

If you read the master and margarita ( allegory of stalins Russia) there is an account of jesus from the roman point of view that is very interesting.
There were manyreal jesus style figures at the time, and Christianity shares many feature of mithraism, a cult popular with Romans, especially in the army.

It's very interesting. Excuse typing, baby asleep on shoulder.

Our Blanche yes someone did - 'Jesus was born in Bethlehem which currently sits in the disputed West Bank.

So it's either Israel or Palestine depending on your politics'

That's just objectively incorrect.

Interested by people saying there's no historical basis for him existing though. I was always told (from people with an interest in ancient history and theology, rather than religious people) that there was actual proof from close enough to his death that he was a preacher with followers etc. And obviously as discussed these are all real places and there would have been some historical
Records etc for centuries after. For people who think it's all a myth, when would that have started? I'm sure some of the stories were added to, I know bits of the gospels contradict each other, but surely there has to have been an actual person who started it all off?

Going back to the OPs questions... According to the gospel account, the wise men looked for the 'new born King' in a palace- logical. Unfortunately the resident King (Herod) was not impressed, and sought to end talk of this rival by slaughtering all infant boys under 2years old in the area. There is historical reference to this, I think.
Mary and Joseph returned to Nazareth through Egypt, to avoid Herod.
Some theology scholars say the narrative is designed to show that Jesus fulfilled prophecies from the Old Testament.
As far as historical evidence is concerned, only fragments of primary sources exist from that time, almost all sources for everything would be secondary texts. Jesus wouldn't have been a big cheese at the time- just a very annoying local phenomenon. You could argue that for his story to spread and survive the way it has, then those present at the time must have seen something very compelling in him.

Anymore questions? Happy to help if I can...

His surname
Was Jones, same as Adam and Eve, and even Noah, as well
As King Herrod.
Son of God Jones
Simples

I'm finding this discussion fascinating even if I initiated it trying to get a geography lesson!
Google pisses me off btw. You have to trawl through a variety of sources to get a balanced answer.
I much prefer mn. Plus I enjoy the discussions

Ah! I see appalachian

I too was taught, by lay deacon grandfather, that there were contemporary stories about a man, a man who was one of many preachers, who caught the imagination of later writers and became the conduit for all stories, the cipher for the morality.

A bit like King Arthur!

So what youre saying flumpy is that he was Jones the messiah, I'm welsh I could get behind that not really

winewolf. I have a well-readcopy of that. It is one of my favourite portrayals of Jesus in fiction, and makes Pilate very sympathetic figure, too.

"The Liar's Gospel"(Naomi Alderman) is also an interesting fictional account (and I know that to many people they are ALL fictional accounts - but I don't believe that. I am a practising Christian and enjoy reading different speculations and fictionalisations of Jesus' life, as well as historical accounts (few and far between, but I include the Gospels in that category - canonical and non-canonical)).