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Original poster

settle an argument?

206 replies

myoriginal3 · 11/12/2016 17:30

Where was Jesus from?
I know he was born in Bethlehem. Is that in Israel?
I also know he was reared in Nazareth wherever that is.
But where was Mary fleeing from?
Who told herod about her pregnancy
And dh wants to know what Jesus surname was. I have suggested Christ

OP posts:
ClashCityRocker · 12/12/2016 08:02

I thought his first name was Emmanuel and Jesus was like a title or something.

RaspberryOverloadTheFirst · 12/12/2016 08:57

JustAnotherPoster00 Sun 11-Dec-16 18:33:34

Raspberry isnt that theory derived from the writings of Tacitus which later were disproved

I read a book about it, and the chap proposing the theory was bringing in stuff from a wide range of sources.

This one's had me puzzled since childhood: Why is Jesus' genealogy traced through Joseph? Joseph was descended from King David, but according to the gospels, Joseph wasn't Jesus' father.

If the theory I read about who Jesus' parents really were is true, then Joseph was actually a second marriage for Mary, and more of a protector. It's interesting how little the bible focuses on him, and how much more on Mary. She's the important one in terms of geneology.

Janteloven · 12/12/2016 10:10

Joseph was actually a second marriage for Mary, and more of a protector.

Thank you, Raspberry. "Joseph was 80 to 90 years old when he married 12-year-old Mary." That would make paternity unlikely.

discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/30/marriage-of-mary-to-joseph-the-carpenter/comment-page-1/

Mary was the important person in Jesus' genealogy

"Since Jesus was Miriam’s son, he too was a member of the house of David."

jewsforjesus.org/issues-v05-n06/the-genealogy-of-the-messiah

Jesus Christ meets the criteria for Messiah through his mother.

the bible focuses on him

Is Joseph's geneaology, incorporated into the gospels, a red herring?

lasttimeround · 12/12/2016 10:11

clash immanuel is another title. I think taken from Jewish scripture and meaning "god with us" referring to jesus as being god among men. It's not his name.

lurkinghusband · 12/12/2016 11:39

Wasn't pretty much the entire "what it is to be a Christian" cooked up in the 4th Century at the en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea ?

Prior to that "Christianity" was far more radical - women preachers, no bishops etc etc. Then the clunking fist of Roman misogyny kicked in, and the whole thing become a tool for perpetuating the status quo ?

The myth (is it still taught in schools) that St Augustine "converted" the British to Christianity rather ignores the fact that when he travelled the UK he kept bumping into people who were not only Christian, but who had a backstory which predated the pope. Obviously they had to go so en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Whitby was established to supplant Celtic Christianity with Roman Christianity.

userformallyknownasuser1475360 · 12/12/2016 11:42

Definitely wasn't from here, no hope of finding three wise men, never mind a virgin.

SiblingsarePITA · 12/12/2016 11:48

He's Jesus of Nazareth born in what is modern day PALESTINE... Palestine then and still now... How ironic that if Jesus was born in modern day he would be a refugee and turned away from these western countries who all celebrate his birth... Or He would be in the disputed West Bank being bombed by Israel constantly... Also, Jesus was born an Arab... It's just ironic that so much of the west celebrate the birth of a man who was born in Palestine and was Arab but are against taking any refugees at this point for fear of too many foreigners in the country #completelymissespointofthread

Also, again, he was Arab, tanned skin and all with a beard... Not Caucasian white as the west lines to depict... Probable looked very much like the Muslims of now... Yet all this racism against Muslims currently and we all celebrate the birth of a prophet who looks like one... Hmm

FlappysMammyAndPopeInExile · 12/12/2016 12:02

I'm more interested in Mary Magdeline- was always taught by my gran that she was Jesus' wife as she was taught this by the convent where she was raised.

That's interesting - most of the Roman Catholics I know have been taught that Mary Magdalene ws a prostitute (and of course, Jesus would never ave got married because he wouldn't be interested in anything as nasty as sex, would he?)

samG76 · 12/12/2016 12:15

Siblings - you win my prize for the silliest political point of 2016. Well done! Virtue-signalling at its purest!

Jesus was a Jew. If he turned up in most Arab countries or the West Bank he would be threatened and probably injured or worse.Why would Jesus be a refugee in any case? Israel hasn't bombed the West Bank for years, and especially not Bethlehem, which is under Palestinian Authority control.

3luckystars · 12/12/2016 12:24

I often wondered how the Holy family were still so poor after getting those expensive gifts from the 3 Magi. My mam told me they used the gold and the myrrh to pay to get across the borders and to escape. I like that idea.

lurkinghusband · 12/12/2016 12:30

I often wondered how the Holy family were still so poor after getting those expensive gifts from the 3 Magi.

Wasn't the Myrrh used to embalm Jesus after the crucifixion ?

Wafiwa · 12/12/2016 12:45

a backstory which predated the pope

Many Christians predated the formation of the Catholic Church.

Without the influence of the gospels, what did early Christians believe?

Does the widespread rumour of Jesus' marriage to Mary Magdalene date back to this period?

userformallyknownasuser1475360 · 12/12/2016 13:10

There were numerous Gospels, not just the traditional Matt Mark Luke and John, tjose four were the standard texts of the Catholic Church .....the earliest of these 4 is estimated to have been written 80 years after the death of Christ.

A lot of stories were handed down by word of mouth hence why they can be historically inaccurate

Gutted2016 · 12/12/2016 13:20

The nativity story is no place to look for historical accuracy regarding Jesus's birth, the gospels are all entirely different and the story we hear today is a mishmash of the best parts of them. It's a bit telling when the very source of these stories cannot even be trusted for accuracy within its own pages.

lurkinghusband · 12/12/2016 13:29

The nativity story is no place to look for historical accuracy

Neither is the Bible ...

RaspberryOverloadTheFirst · 12/12/2016 13:32

There were more than the 4 biblical gospels, though. Wasn't it the Council of Nicea that selected those gospels that contained the message they wanted to promote and banned the rest?

The cache of scrolls found at Nag Hammadi certainly contain texts thought to be contemporary with the 4 biblical gospels, and have a different viewpoint.

icanteven · 12/12/2016 13:36

Is there any documented evidence of herod and the babies being killed?

No. It's the sort of thing that would have been recorded, but there is no such record.

I often wondered how the Holy family were still so poor...

One of the theories is that they were not, not even a little bit. The reason Jesus had such influence from such a young age was because they were actually a reasonably wealthy family. There some crossover in the language between the words for "carpenter" and "architect" or "civil engineer", which casts rather a different light on Joseph's annual income, right?

If you visualise the Holy Family (if they ever existed) as a very well-off middle class family, then it makes more sense. There was less social mobility then than now, and it is inconceivable that a boy from the peasant classes would have been educated or widely listened to. Also Mary Magdalene (if you go with the theory that she was independently wealthy and educated) why would she give the time of day to somebody who wasn't of her class? Or the disciples?

I had never heard the theory upthread about Jesus being Herod's grandson. Love it. Thank you!

Annie592 · 12/12/2016 13:39

Thank you JustAnotherPoster00

SiblingsarePITA · 12/12/2016 13:50

SamG76

Jesus was born Palestinian, he brought Christianity to the World... Judaism was the only Abrahamic religion of the time, the Jews would not have flamed him for being a Jew...

Judaism is a religion not a race...

No, they may not have bombed the West Bank, they just throw the palestinians out and take their homes as they please instead... Because the Torah says the land belongs to them... Hmm

Imagine someone came to your house, threw you out and said their holy book said it belonged to them 2000 years ago, therefore you must comply... Don't trivialise it...

RaspberryOverloadTheFirst · 12/12/2016 13:52

Regarding Jesus and his employment, etc. As they lived for some time in Capernaum on the edge of the Sea of Galilee, it seems the Romans were building a new city just a short distance away, somewhere that a good carpenter/architect/etc would easily find employment. Can't remember what the city was called, but it's long gone, and even the ruins aren't widely known about.

amammabear · 12/12/2016 14:03

Sorry I haven't rtft, but I didn't half laugh at "reared"!!!

Gutted2016 · 12/12/2016 14:04

Icanteven, that's very interesting about the income and interpretation. A rich baby born in a stable is a little more likely to have invited stories and rumours than the poor ones who were probably regularly born in stables!

Lurkinghusband, exactly! The nativity is probably the most basic of all the biblical stories and yet it still isn't told coherently or consistently even in it's primary source. And the missing gospels surely can't have added any coherence or presumably they'd have made it in. Maybe they were in fact more jumbled and it was decided to stick with the least mixed up!

amammabear · 12/12/2016 14:04

I realise it's a regional thing as I live in a rural area, so I've only ever come across reared with regards to animals.

lurkinghusband · 12/12/2016 14:05

Regarding Jesus and his employment,

Really, he was just a well publicised motivational speaker ....

userformallyknownasuser1475360 · 12/12/2016 14:06

Watched a documentary on Netflix about the exodus and whether it really happened, very interesting, it would appear that the bible may be inaccurate about this (esp timings) and as a result of this the question has to be asked if there is a basis for Judaism or Christianity- if there was no exodus the. The teachings of Judaism and Christianity are fundementally flawed.

There is evidence though that it may have happened, and the ttimeframe may be confused as someone put in the time of Rameses into the text