To think DH might be right (though it pains me to say it!)

[burgundyandgoldleaves]

Had a bit of an argument this morning. Do you think I am being unreasonable?

DH has said there is definitely an expectation that someone will be at home during the primary school years. (I was saying something about nativity plays.) I said he was wrong, and it was normal for both parents to work now. He said it was normal in theory but in practice it wasn't because in families where two parents worked they either had grandparents nearby and willing to help or the work was very part time - lunchtime supervisor or similar.

When I thought about it I wondered if he might actually be right. These threads about school plays and assemblies and even things like dropping children off at school seem to assume a parent or a relative will do it.

Or is he being unreasonable?

I think many schools do assume the mummy will be at home - my kids got a bit of a hard time that we didn't walk to school (a drive to save the planet with less car journeys); the school didn't seem to grasp that more than half the parents who dropped off the kids were on their way to work (it's a small village with no public transport, so almost all of us had little choice but to go by car). We joked that 'walk to school' day could be renamed 'lose your job' day, as we'd all end up late for work, after running home after walking to school then drive to work :-D.
It's a fact that schools do sometime s assume, but unless ur DH was actually saying 'So u cannot work' i don't think he meant any harm, so u may have to let him off!

Our school is in an officially deprived area. People either work all hours or both parents are at home. We never assume that parents can attend things, but have to extend invitations to events anyway. Sometimes other close family members come in lieu of the parent. We always talk to our children about it as some get upset if they can't see mum or dad in an audience etc, and make it clear we understand not everyone's can come, for work reasons.
What is annoying is knowing that some people could come, but choose not to, as they are not interested in supporting their children.

Actually minipie, it's OFSTED's expectations that need to change. Schools are required to demonstrate they have parental engagement and one of the main ways that is measured is by the number of times parents are invited to school and the % attendance.

The school's themselves would rather be left alone without parental interference

Two working parents here (Dp is step dad to DS) both of us work full time and neither of us live near any family who can look after DS so we use a childminder for after school.

Then Ofsted should consult with other parts of government that presume parents should be working!

I think a fair proportion of parents - mainly mothers - work part-time. There are hardly any SAHM (I am one) and I do not think that schools assume most pupils have a non-working parent at all. There are a number of working parents - even part-time - that have considerable help from their own parents.

However - as PP have said, you already have a child at school for quite a while, so this argument seems to be focused on the possible franchise. I don't see weekend toddler groups working because if you are aiming at working parents, they are mainly doing things as a family at the weekends.

As for your opinion of SAH parents, OP - and I quote

I don't know if it is sour grapes. I think it's hideous staying at home. It's dull, lonely and lends itself to making you dependent on staying with your husband due to finances whether you want to or not.

I assume you are referring to yourself because I don't see my DH as a cash cow at all. SAH parent does not equal dull or lonely.

PrettySophisticated Why id OFSTED have such a strict definition of parental engagement, don't they publish the percentage attendance of parents at events?

Given that our school doesn't even take a count of parents at events, let alone matching them to actual students (knowing if it's four adults for precious little Thomas, or one each for four different kids) I can't imagine a well run school would so completely ignore something they're being measured against.

PrettySophisticated I'm sure you're right!

Anyone got a contact number for Ofsted?

I find it really annoying when people assume one parent is the SAHP. And even more annoying that the assumption is nearly always that the woman will be the one at home. And equally annoying when people express the idea that having a SAHP should be the ideal that all families strive for.

Hmm, I guess I find quite a few things annoying.

I have a career. It is as important to me as my husband's career is to him. It would not occur to either of us to stop working (extreme circumstances aside), and I would be rather affronted if the school authorities expected each family to have a SAHP.

I can't pretend to be an expert but it's up to the school to provide evidence of parental engagement. Heads at good/outstanding schools are usually great at playing that game and will keep the evidence. I dont think OFSTED have specific requirements, more that it's up to schools to show them that parents are engaged. That's what the too and fro book/home school diary is for too.

Which isn't as cynical as it sounds, because strong parental engagement does improve outcomes

So I work full time now and so does my DH we have one DD at 6 and we don't live near any family never have in the past 6 years. To make it work when I got my new role (was made redundant) we decided to get an Aupair to take and collect DD. I still managed nativity last week.Lots of working mums and dads in our school some part some full. Some SAHMS but these ladies have more than one child often at a different school they literally have to be i two places at once just like me! Its no different. Just have to do what's right for you not what's expected of you.

Don't forget the parents that people assume work part time. My dh works in retail, 45 hours a week. I work on average 64 hours a week, I have the higher salary but as I started my career once we already had 3 children my hours had to fit around his, a mixture of lates and over nights. We now have 5 dc. He walks in the door I walk out of it. During the days of I've been working over night I have a nap when the baby naps. People on the outside think I work part-time as this means I can attend 99% of school activities. My job is far from it but to the outside world I quite possibly look like a sahm...

Not read the whole thread but my dd is yr1 and ds stars reception in sept. I really cannot see how two parents can both work full time and manage to keep up with the school day etc and still see assemblies etc. At our school which is 2 form entry so 60 families in our year and I know them quite well I can't think of any where both parents have full time conventional 9-5 jobs. Lots of shift workers e.g. Bus drivers, work from home bookkeepers, some teachers with part time hours, fair few freelancers of one description of another. That said lots of us have younger kids too so maybe this will change once they are all at school. Of my friends who are all degree educated middle class types everyone has one parent who works part time or freelance, except one couple and they are struggling with this constantly.

Me and DH work. His work is more flexible than mine. So he does school drop offs and we both do 2 pick ups a week.
I am 4th on the emergency/ contact list for DSD, however I have still had the phone calls about bringing in forgotten library books, PE kit ect. Really don't get why they go to me first! Phone GP or DH first they can do something about it I can't leave work (I am also nearly and hour away!)

I think there is an expectation that someone is available during the week during the day. It is more marked at the lower end of the school and eases off (although still present) in the juniors. I agree it completely disappears in secondary school . The schools expectactions combined with part time timetable until Xmas was definitely a shock to the system after 8-6 nursery

Dh and I both work full time, although we have arranged our shifts so that we do not need childcare/family help.

It works, but it was easier when I didn't work following dc3's arrival and when I worked 'very part time' evening shifts for a year.

Both of you are completely right.

Our schools a choice school with wrap around care - no catchment area. So attracts working parents

Not the case at private schools by any means. Every mother I was with last night worked full time for example, 100% of them. I always have.

However one of us usually can take off time once a year to see a nativity play.

Thankfully private schools will not be subject to silly state rules about parental engagement. I almost pay to keep parents out of school pushing in with their PTAs and "involvement". Let the school teach. Let the parents be at home and just turn up in the evenings for parents' evenings.

strong parental engagement does improve outcomes

Totally agree, but I wish that could be done in ways that don't involve the parent being physically at the school in the middle of the working day.

I also think that all these "events" and shows aren't the most useful form of "parental engagement" - they tick the box but not sure how much they really help the child.

You can turn up and see little Jimmy do his bit in the Nativity/Easter Parade/Open Art Day/Sports Day and still be none the wiser about how he's really getting on at school and how he might need home support.

I would rather there were far fewer events and far more opportunity for parent-teacher chats about how the child is doing. And those chats (unlike the events) could be done by phone, so much easier to fit around the teacher and parent's working day. And they would probably take less time than organising umpteen events.

It's really hard - our school makes no allowances for working parents ..
There is endless assemblies, concerts, half days -
We made a family decision and I'm now a SAHM I have a two year old too. It's not for everyone but it works for us now and means I can always be there ....
But it's SO much harder when they are st school x

I would love to work f/t but every time I've looked at it, I just can't see how to work it. I have zero flexibility in my job and DH has periods of flexibility then periods of zero flexibility too. We don't have family and no room for an au pair. Financially, I don't need to work but my career is floundering and will continue to do so unless I return f/t. I just don't know how people do it when they don't have family or flexibility.

My daughters primary school there are only a couple of SAHM Mums/Dads out of 60 in the year. It's affluent middle class area. I'm also on the PTA and we are all working mums/dads. But my eldest did Reception with us both working full time (as we had all through the nursery years). I did feel she was missing out on playdates, clubs etc also our before/ after-school club 5 days a week costs almost as much as nursery. I dropped to part-time & some flexible working from home. Still some after-school clubs. We have no grandparents nearby. I am hoping my OH will find something more flexible soon too as it would be better to share the load.

Surely most primary school teachers are working females, many of whom have children themselves?!
Of course it'll vary school by school - some will be in areas of high unemployment so you'll probably get a lot of mums and dad's at school events. Some will have more of the well off SAHM types.
Don't sweat the small stuff- this is really not worth falling out over!

Surely most primary school teachers are working females, many of whom have children themselves?!

This was always something that puzzled me. But then I guess the teachers aren't the ones who make the decisions regarding programmes, recitals, sports, etc. Back when my boys were in school (US) those decisions were made at the administrative or district level, most of whom were men.