To think DH might be right (though it pains me to say it!)

[burgundyandgoldleaves]

Had a bit of an argument this morning. Do you think I am being unreasonable?

DH has said there is definitely an expectation that someone will be at home during the primary school years. (I was saying something about nativity plays.) I said he was wrong, and it was normal for both parents to work now. He said it was normal in theory but in practice it wasn't because in families where two parents worked they either had grandparents nearby and willing to help or the work was very part time - lunchtime supervisor or similar.

When I thought about it I wondered if he might actually be right. These threads about school plays and assemblies and even things like dropping children off at school seem to assume a parent or a relative will do it.

Or is he being unreasonable?

Surely he's not being unresonable, he is simply expressing an opinion.

I don't think he is necessarily wrong, there is an expectation that someone will be available rather than specifically at home I think.

You're both right. The school my DC attend do a LOT of assuming. It's a bit of a chi chi area with a lot of well off families...one parent at home in general.

They therefore assume we're ALL like that. We're not.

DS has finished school now, but it was an endless source of frustration that the school (private, as it happens) seemed to assume that every family had at least one parent available during the day, or at silly after-school times like 4-6pm. I am hardly every home by then & DH never is.

Is your dh offering to be the sahp? What's the outcome of his expectations that there should be a parent at home during primary years?

I don't agree with him btw, it is perfectly possible to both work and have dc in primary school.

A lot of the parent work ft where I am but I agree with him
Au pairs, childminders, nannies, family & friend support do the pick ups
I am a single parent and work ft. I use a combo of the last three.
Without that I don't see how working could be done.
Starting school is not conducive to working parents. 1 day - building to 5 days, a few hours at a time over two months, even though they have been in nursery pre school for a yr etc is archaic
All school things sports days, plays, coffee mornings, teacher interviews, PTA etc are during the day. Plus during teacher interviews all the children finish at 12 for the week, this happens twice per yr.
Plus all the endless holidays and random training days
New starters at the school mean others need to go home for those days.

Your h is right

Around here I would say that in 90% of 2 parent households 1 parent (almost always the mum) works part time. All the single mum's I know work full time though.

I don't understand how anyone can have an argument over this. There is no expectation of anything. People just do what they do and for the most part nobody else cares. I can never work out why people come on here feeling guilty or worrying what others think of them because they were no at a school event. Some people even worry what people think of them because they do attended these things. Reality is, no one else gives a shit.

Without mentioning the blardy homework!

Definite expectation at my DD's school. It's a regular thing to have open sessions in a morning, or meetings during school time. I think there is about 10 children out of an intake of 45 in reception who are not picked up by a family member, mine is picked up by a childminder but my friends who also work all have family members who pick up for them.

Myself and dh both work and have no family back-up. We manage because my job is fairly flexible and I can take unpaid leave as well. But we have the advantage of being older parents so our housing costs are not as high as for young couples. On a day to day basis we use childcare, out of school clubs etc.
Schools are set up on the assumption that someone is available to come in for nativity plays etc, but when else would they do these? 8pm? The reality is that a lot of teachers and school staff are also working parents and have to sort out their own childcare nightmares.
I think in general, this country is a very difficult place to be a parent - children are seen as a personal life choice, like a dog or a sports car. Whereas in most European countries they are seen as the future of the society. So there is more financial support, more leave for parents, cheaper childcare so you don't have to work 24/7 just to pay the nursery fees and housing costs do not tend to be so high as here.

I work FT (slightly flexible hours). DH works FT. I drop him off to school in the morning (8:15/20 and head to work). I pick him up from school on 2 days (and then make up the hours at night). We have childcare and his CM picks him up on the other three days and always have had. She looks after him through half term and the holidays. Grandparents live on a whole other continent 10 hours away. School gives us notice for most stuff and we either take leave or go into work a little later (nativity play was 9-9:30 am this year so I was at work by 10 am). Fairly standard in his London primary school.

I don't go for coffee mornings but I am friends with the mums. I went to just one last year. Several mums did the same (in fact one coffee morning had to be cancelled because so few made it). I have made it to the two plays they have, one sports day and the one Open Morning and my parents' evening slot is after 5 pm. So that's 4 things in the annual calendar and 3/4 things take up an hour in the morning (plays and Open Morning) so I or DH just go a bit later. Homework is done at home or at the CM's or on the weekends.
I missed one curriculum session last year because I had a meeting I couldn't cancel and DH was out of town. The teachers put the flyers into his book bag and one of the other mums told me what had been said (nothing earth shattering as it happens).

I think a lot of primary school teachers do work part time, in fact. That's certainly the case at DSs school. He's had two teachers (job share!) every year apart from Year 3.

If things are truly important you take time off for it. I don't know about others but I wouldn't take time off for a nativity if my dd wasn't in it. Similarly if my child virtually never gets picked for music/trips etc I'm not going to donate towards them.

Our children attend a school in a very low income area- I think about 70% of school are eligible for Free school meals. Our children are in the minority that are not. Most parents are either working crazy shifts or not working. 3/30 children in my daughters class have two parents still together. The school expects a high level of parental involvement but critically gives you fair warning. So Xmas assembly dates and year assemblies were given out at the end of sept. Parents evening set at start of term. Inset days set two years in advance (yes really) It's a really large school - but is v well organised - and therefore gets good parental engagement as a result.

I'm interested in the context of your argument. Was it because DH doesn't want to take time off to attend something? Or is he looking for one of you to go part time/SAHP?

FWIW, both DH and I work FT and we manage PT meetings by taking time off. The school plan activities during the day and at night, so we manage some but not others. DH or the CM deal with phonecalls about illness/injury. There has never been a hint or suggestion of pressure or disapproval from the school for not being able to attend.

My experience of SAHP is that people are more likely to be at home when their DCs are pre-school age, but the majority return to work when school starts. In general, the only ones who have a non-working parent are well paid middle-class professionals. Everyone else needs school as free childcare so they can work.

YABU to argue over it in the abstract: go and find some facts www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/workingandworklesshouseholds/aprtojune2016

Is it my imagination, or is it becoming more of an expectation that -the mother- one parent stays home (when this situation is applicable / they can)? Growing up in the 70s it was unusual to have a SAHM. Now it seems that working Mothers are in the minority. Of course, in those days I was walking to and from school alone at the age of 6 and many of my friends were 'latch-key kids' (and never suffered for it, I might add). Something changed (in the 90s?) and suddenly the world became a scary place demanding that children were monitored more than in the past. I'm not sure what the shift was, or why it happened.

I don't get this expectation at all. Your DH is absolutely right that the expectation exists. Yet the very people at school who type out letters asking me to come in to help read to children in the day, have 'sharing afternoons at 2-3pm, inviting me to 'pop in for a weekly coffee in the staff room for informal catch up about school issues' etc are WORKING FULL TIME, so why do they automatically assume I am not? The number of arguments I have had - "Mrs Lost, can you just pop to school and bring your child's forgotten musical instrument/ trainers/jumper/hamster/" "No,because I'm at work, what's more it's a two hour trip for me and school will be finished by then". Or "Mrs lost, can you rush into school with some non urgent piece of paperwork - permission slip that I've lost but will get grief about if I don't get it completed today" "No, because I gave it in last week, you will have to wait until it is convenient for ME"
Or remarks by teachers. Such as, "Can your child do less time in wrap round care? " Me: " No, because I am at WORK"
Teacher: "Gosh Mrs Lost, we never see you on the school yard" Me:" Thts because I am at work"
It really is an alien concept for them, even though, they are all at work!!!!!
Arggghh!!

YetAnotherSpartacus I guess you've moved, or the area changed a lot? There was an expectation where I grew up in the 70's that there would be a SAHP, not necessarily because they expected someone to stay home, but because most people could get by on just one income and there weren't that many other jobs anyway. It wasn't an expectation based on it being the right way, just that it was the way, because most people were in 2 parent families with only one WOHP.

The belief in your ability to walk yourself to school of course has certainly changed.

There's certainly not an expectation locally here that there's one SAHP at all, but I can believe it's more to do with a different area rather than simply a change in times.

I think it is true that some schools assume that a parent is available at the drop of a hat. But the reality for many is that both parents work. I recently wrote to my dd's school asking them to drop this assumption and to give us more adequate notice of standard events such as assemblies and parents evenings so that those of us who do work can get the time off to attend our children's events. Your dp is not wrong. But it's schools that need to wise up to this. Modern lives modern times.

I was a latch key child (of a teacher!) in the 1970s. It was most definitely not "Normal" my poor mum got grief from everyone. From her boss, her parents, the neighbours. No-one thought it was right.

My youngest is 19 and there wasn't this expectation, ever. Loads of us worked full time, lots used childminders and there were three regular childminders that did drop offs and pick ups that I still see frequently doing the same thing fifteen years later. There were also lots grans helping out with pick up or drop off. There were very few SAHP at our primary. In fact I can only remember two, the school never to my knowldge asked me during the day to drop things off. The only time they contacted me wwas when a child was sick. I made all th school plays as they were in an evening, and all the parents evenings. I missed churchy things during the day but so did most other parents.

Lost

They actually say your child should do less time in wraparound care?

I grew up in the 80s and both my parents worked full time. It was unusual, though. I wonder if it is more a 'where you live' thing than an 'era' thing?

As a primary teacher (Y2) I assume that both parents are at work, unless they have a very small baby. Lots of kids go to after care or go home with grandparents etc. I try to make sure they get loads of notice of events so they can arrange time off.

I was a latch key child (of a teacher!) in the 1970s. It was most definitely not "Normal" my poor mum got grief from everyone.

Really? I was a bit unusual for having a SAHM! I have moved and the demographic profile of the area I lived in has also changed (was poor and is still poor though).

The other thing that strikes me is that my parents rarely had to show up at school and were rarely in contact (newsletters were on wonderfully smelly purple inked paper that you could bury your face in all the way home).... I still remember some ladies in scarves and curlers dropping kids off though! My mother always thought they were a bit common :).