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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be annoyed at being called "Mrs"

249 replies

Level75 · 02/12/2016 22:35

I kept my surname when I got married, so I'm Ms Level. Mrs Level is my mum. AIBU to be irritated when people call me Mrs Level. Is there any polite way to set them straight?

OP posts:
HyacinthFuckit · 04/12/2016 10:40

Rather depends on what you mean by 'being a dickhead' scooby.

Unfortunately, far too many people object to something that is a custom with its roots in women being treated as chattel being described as such. Some even claim their choice was a feminist one! It's not that only one choice is right, but there are certain choices that are not remotely feminist. And people who have made those choices don't have the right to bar others from pointing that out.

However, criticising women for taking a particular decision in a patriarchal society is being a dickead. Many women feel, some of whom are no doubt correct, that it makes their lives easier. As is suggesting it means she can't be a feminist, when a brief look at history tells us that isn't true. Mrs Pankhurst anyone?

HapShawl · 04/12/2016 10:53

On these threads whenever I see someone say "I know literally no woman who calls themselves Ms or who has got married and hasn't taken their husband's name" I think I bet you do, you've just been calling them the wrong thing all this time

OhTheRoses · 04/12/2016 10:55

Hmm the chattel business always mystifies me. I got married at 31 having kissed a few frogs. I decided DH was a prince, I decided to marry him, I entered the union with a pre-nup (I was the one with assets), I decided to take his name, I decided to obey because I'd never have married a man whose values and moral code were out of sync with mine.

Marriage is and was in 1991 contextual; it wasn't as it was in 1791 or 1891 in the context of legal and social codes certainly and in my oponion. Also in relation to the promises before God. My liberal Anglican God does not condone abuse of any kind.

HyacinthFuckit · 04/12/2016 11:32

This has nothing to do with yours or any other deity, though. Your religious beliefs are a matter for you but this isn't theology. It's history. You are following a custom that arose from women being, legally, chattel. That's not a matter of opinion. How relevant you feel that is today is up to you: that's the part we get to have diverse thoughts on. But the source of the tradition you have chosen to follow is a historical fact, and if you're mystified by that I'm afraid you may just have to stay that way while it continues to be so.

Additionally, your final point relates to marriage, not one of the naming traditions that sometimes goes along with it. As we have already established, the two are distinct and should not be conflated.

OhTheRoses · 04/12/2016 11:36

Did you have to be quite so rude hyacinth.

Statelychangers · 04/12/2016 11:43

I'm sure many women have found that the prince they married turned out to be a frog after all and sometimes that wasn't just poor judgement. When women promised to obey, it was just as well for some that they had the right to break that promise.

NicknameUsed · 04/12/2016 11:44

I agree with OhTheRoses.

OH and I got married in 1981. I omitted the obey part, but took his name because I wanted to. I never felt that I was a chattel and still don't. We are an equal partnership. I think that some people overthink it too much.

I don't care what title people take or whether they change their names on marriage, but I think that being insulted or offended when others make incorrect assumptions is a bit much given that most women follow the tradition of changing their names and becoming a Mrs.

I understand why it is irritating though, especially if people should know, because it is rude to address someone incorrectly in that case.

HyacinthFuckit · 04/12/2016 12:01

Good example there from ohtheroses of the sort of behaviour I was talking about in my post at 10.40. Unfortunately, some people are opposed to the merest mention of the irrefutable historical context and thus resort to tone trolling. I'd give the benefit of the doubt, but she's got previous.

WhoKnowsWhereTheT1meG0es · 04/12/2016 12:10

Ms is a title that was only brought up as an option in the late 60s/early 70s, there's a lot of woman who've been a Mrs longer than there's been even the modern idea of Ms around. Asking them to give up their title for something so new is obviously going to be harder to push through rather than reclassifying Mrs to be for all adult woman. (Which would be easier to do by stealth).

No one should be asked to give up their existing title (I would be very resistant to adopting Mrs having been a Ms since my teens so I get that) but if we adopted the practice of women changing to Ms when they reach adulthood, just as men move from Master to Mr then the whole Miss/Mrs/Ms thing would slowly fade away.

Scooby20 · 04/12/2016 12:11

Unfortunately, far too many people object to something that is a custom with its roots in women being treated as chattel being described as such. Some even claim their choice was a feminist one! It's not that only one choice is right, but there are certain choices that are not remotely feminist. And people who have made those choices don't have the right to bar others from pointing that out.

Personally I dint give a shit about history when I make a decision for myself. I don't take into consideration what the tradition of the past was.

I didn't marry dh do he could feel like he owned me. I didn't consider tgat since it used to be all about ownership, that I shouldn't do it. I decided I wanted the legal protection of marriage before having kids and joint finances.the history of marriage didn't come into it

You can make a decision for yourself and what suits you, regardless of the history of it.

Quite frankly you don't have any right to point out someone's decision is wrong or assume they did it because they are just conditioned. It's their life. If they ask for your view. Fair enough. Otherwise it's non of your business.

If people want to lie about the reasons for changing their name because they can't be arsed being talked down to, that's their choice.

It's like the sahm/whmohm debate again. IE no one else business other than the two adults involved.

Scooby20 · 04/12/2016 12:15

Wohm that should say. No idea where the xtra letters came from.

NicknameUsed · 04/12/2016 12:43

Well said Scooby

HapShawl · 04/12/2016 12:50

we should be allowed to talk about trends (e.g. Why and how changing of name after marriage is so weighted towards women, or why there are more SAHM than SAHD or women working part time). Saying "personal choice so STFU" doesn't allow the examination of structural things

Scooby20 · 04/12/2016 13:18

hap that doesn't relate at all to my posts. Clearly you have only read my post, not in context to the last few posts I have posted and that a pp has responded to.

Discussing is fine. Giving your unasked for opinion in a derogatory way isn't ok. Which is what I have been talking about - the possible reason so many women say they changed their name.

I never said we couldn't dicuss titles. I quoted what the pp said about people not being allowed people pointing out things about their decisions.

I wholeheartedly believe no one has the automatic right to question any bodies decision unless it impacts their own life.

What a woman decides to called upon marriage is her business and does not invite anyone's opinion.

londonrach · 04/12/2016 13:26

Up to you to nicely correct people. Personally i HATE ms (dont care if unreasonable on this ).

londonrach · 04/12/2016 13:28

Scooby you said it better than i could ever say

HyacinthFuckit · 04/12/2016 13:32

Quite frankly you don't have any right to point out someone's decision is wrong or assume they did it because they are just conditioned. It's their life. If they ask for your view. Fair enough. Otherwise it's non of your business.

None of this relates to anything I have written in the post you quote, though. Like, not even slightly.

There is a distinction between pointing out that something comes from a history of women being chattel, which this tradition unquestionably does, and saying it is wrong. You need to not conflate the two, which is what you're doing here. Nor have I said anything to suggest people have made a particular decision because they're conditioned either. That's a strawman I won't be responsible for.

And lastly, people have every right to comment on decisions other people make, particularly when they affect them. Which other women's decisions to change their names on marriage and use the title 'Mrs' do me, because they make my desire to have a neutral choice, in the way men get, less of a possibility. Being women, we don't get to pick names and titles that don't have any impact on other women, and your desire to have a title reflecting your married status also relies on other people using titles that reinforce this (ie Mrs would soon stop having any connotation of a married woman if unmarried women adopted it en masse). You do not have the right to squash discussion of this because you don't like it.

Kel1234 · 04/12/2016 13:34

If somebody doesn't know, then yabu. But if the person does know but still does it, then no, yanbu.
I'm a Mrs husbands name, and get annoyed when I'm called Ms husbands name. I just say, "actually that should be Mrs, not Ms".

Cuppaqueen · 04/12/2016 16:26

Interesting article here on research done into the history of Mrs, Miss and Ms: http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/mistress-miss-mrs-or-ms-untangling-the-shifting-history-of-titles

It notes that Mrs and Ms are both ultimately derived from Mistress, which as pp have said, used to be used for all adult women of status/ skills. Consistent use of Mrs to mean a married woman only dates from around 1900. Ms was commonly used as an alternative abbreviation as far back as the 17th/18th century, although it was of course deliberately revived in 20th century to contrast with Mrs/Miss as then in use.

Personally I suspect Mrs and Miss became popular as part of that whole Victorian separate spheres ideology, where women were increasingly consigned to a narrowly defined domestic arena and girls were brought up to prepare for marriage as their ultimate/only goal.

It's not an appealing history, however you feel about current usage of the terms Hmm

Scooby20 · 04/12/2016 17:06

There is a distinction between pointing out that something comes from a history of women being chattel, which this tradition unquestionably does, and saying it is wrong. You need to not conflate the two, which is what you're doing here. Nor have I said anything to suggest people have made a particular decision because they're conditioned either. That's a strawman I won't be responsible for.

Straw man? You quoted what I said I responded. The post you quoted clearly talks about people being derogatory about women who choose to take their husbands name. You quoted it.

And lastly, people have every right to comment on decisions other people make, particularly when they affect them. Which other women's decisions to change their names on marriage and use the title 'Mrs' do me, because they make my desire to have a neutral choice, in the way men get, less of a possibility. Being women, we don't get to pick names and titles that don't have any impact on other women, and your desire to have a title reflecting your married status also relies on other people using titles that reinforce this (ie Mrs would soon stop having any connotation of a married woman if unmarried women adopted it en masse). You do not have the right to squash discussion of this because you don't like it.

At no point have I tried to squash any discussion. Again you quoted me talking about people who are derogatory about people's choices. An no you don't have a right to force you opinion on people who have made a choice for themselves purely because you want a neutral choice.

Regardless of you wants you don't not have the right to impose your opinion on anyone. That is anti feminism. Telling women what they should do because you want something a particular way is a huge step in the wrong direction.

HyacinthFuckit · 04/12/2016 18:03

Your remarks about forcing opinions on people are more strawmen scooby. Talking about the historical reason behind a custom that a person has chosen to follow is not the imposition of an opinion. It's just not. For one thing, it isn't an opinion, it's a fact. I haven't actually offered an opinion. And for another, this fact would still exist regardless of whether we talked about it or not. It's not a question of forcing anything on anyone, the history exists independently of all of us.

And you are attempting to squash discussion about this. That's exactly what you've done in all your posts when you characterised discussion as derogatory and said what a woman calls herself on marriage doesn't invite anyone's opinion, MYOB etc. And you making several posts in response to someone who hasn't criticised anyone's individual decision (ie me) and also dismissed a post where someone explained to you why discussing structural factors is valid, says a lot. You want people to stop talking about the chattel roots of the custom you chose to follow. That's why you keep posting the way you do to people who point out the chattel aspect, even when they've not criticised anyone's decision.

HyacinthFuckit · 04/12/2016 18:05

Oops, got cut off.

Telling women what they should do because you want something a particular way is a huge step in the wrong direction.

But what do you imagine this has to do with the post you quoted or anything I've said on this thread?

flumpybear · 04/12/2016 18:12

I'm a Dr too which I prefer but don't mind Mrs - HATE being called Ms and would go out of my way to correct someone who called me Ms

BigFatBollocks · 04/12/2016 18:14

I am a Miss and the school repeatedly refer to me as a Ms in correspondence for some very strange reason!

user1480182169 · 04/12/2016 18:16

I am a Miss and the school repeatedly refer to me as a Ms in correspondence for some very strange reason!

Because Ms is now standard designation in many professions. Why do you feel the need to advertise your marital status?