Conflicted: potentially tiger mum

[Hereforthebeer]

I'm on AIBU to get some home truths

My DCs are primary. They are both really capable and doing well. My initial view of primary school as an outsider was that it was all about being happy and secure.
I don't always make them do homework, I mainly do the reading required but if we have activities, they miss it. I sometimes miss spelling tests and generally am aware of whats required but also want them to love learning and so am sensitive of when I think they need a break/dvd night. So basically i encourage learning, within reason.
Recently, i've been thinking perhaps this is wrong. They are essentially under achieving even though they are only just out of nappies and I should make them always do their best, even if i sit over them, they should always do what is required even if they are knackered and I should be more 'tiger', more competitive.
WWYD/WDYD?

I have no knowledge of homework levels in the rest of the world, but it was practically unknown in state primary schools in the UK from the 1950s to the 1970s. Previous generations could not pour scorn on homework that didn't exist.

fillingmymap.com/2015/06/08/the-three-real-reasons-for-finlands-high-pisa-scores/

An interesting read. We must also remember that there is very little poverty in Finland.

London there are also children who are let down by parents and not pushed enough.

My dh and his siblings are still quite bitter re their parents lack of inclination to push and set expectations re homework and working hard. They feel it had quite an impact on their later life chances.

Would also like to point out that we are now in a global market when competing for uni places and jobs across the spectrum. Also many things we took for granted before are going.

Yes the article makes good points, Green and point number one about most people in Finland being average and that's why they have such a high score, few very high achievers and few very low achievers, is exactly what I was getting at when I said that essentially, how you want your kids to approach school work comes down to your fundamental philosophy of life. The U.K. Is a much more competitive society than Finland - as you say, UK has more povert than Finland, and this is because people pay less tax based on the fundamental ideas that high earning people should be allowed to keep what they've made and poor people should be pushed to achieve more - and this is reflected in the school system. But if you, as a parent raising your child in this country do not fully agree with this ethos, then it's your prerogative to raise your kids slightly differently and approach school their way, as long as they are respectful of general requirements.

Green you're right some kids are let down by not being pushed enough, but as I said,
It all depends on the child in question. Obvs your DH and siblings feel that they were the kind of children who would have been able to enjoy academia and do better, so maybe they would have benefited from being pushed more. However, I would also say that blaming your parents for how much or how little they pushed you is pointless. No one knows what would have happened had they done differently, they most likely did the best they could in heir circumstances. Most people blame their parents for pushing too much or too little, and really it's just a way of avoiding taking responsibility for your own life. It's never too late to do what you want.

Also this thing about being in a global market is a vastly exaggerated point that's being made by neo liberal governments trying to ten schools into factories producing identical, non critically thinking little competitors who can fill the workplaces of tomorrow by giving work their body and soul,
While abandoning principles of creating well
Balanced, rounded individuals who will be good citizens rather than factory robots.

Also, the point about being in a global market is a bit ironic given then UK had just voted to leave the biggest job market that was open to them without restrictions, and to restrict migrants to come in and work here in the UK.

No they didn't do their best. Many parents don't, many do what is best for them and not their children.

Sorry but it is possible to be a well rounded caring individual and work to the best of your ability at school.

Unfortunately we cannot emulate Finlands school system by simply not doing any homework, children in Finland start preschool at an early age, they are playing but it's highly structured, quality and educational play... Mostly outdoors. Child care staff are highly paid, very highly trained and it's a very highly respected career.

Agree with others, you can occupy the middle ground. That middle ground would be, IMHO, encourage your child to engage in school and help encourage and supplement what they have learned, as well as expecting your child to do their best (but being happy with whatever that "best" proves to be, as long as they have tried).

Personally, I make sure my DD does all her homework and completes it to the best of her abilities, unless there is a good reason for her not to do it (e.g. not well, an appointment, important family event or similar)- and I will let the teacher know either in advance or the next day the reasons. I actually think not to is pretty rude, TBH.

I think it's import that children understand that homework (or any schoolwork) is not an optional and should only be done if they feel like it. Yes, children do need to enjoy learning and being pushed too hard too fast isn't what they need, but children also need to begin to understand personal responsibility.

I think it is quite undermining of the teacher for mummy to say that the child only needs to do some of the work, some of the time. How do you decide which part of the homework you'll do and which you won't? If you are genuinely concerned about the level or volume of homework then speak to the teacher, rather than teaching your child that they can skip things if they don't want to do it. I would worry that this might come back and bite you later on- some children are very conscientious by nature and it won't matter, others aren't.

Reading this thread has been really interesting and it is interesting reading about the studies in Finland and also, what primary school teachers say (they are the ones I listen to, seeing as they are the people that have the degree in Education). Personally, I don't like homework. I think my 7 yo gets way too much (an hour a week) and my 6 yo shouldn't be getting it at all.

At this age, children should be learning about themselves and what their strengths are rather than slogging away at a maths book and feeling stressed that they can't do it. From this thread (and previous threads), what I understand is that homework is principally for parents to feel good about themselves and their children.

In saying this, I do think that if you are going to do it, you have to do all of it or not at all otherwise the message you are giving them is that it is all right to do things half heartedly, which is almost as bad as not doing it at all. Now that DS1 is in year 3 he is starting to understand that if he wants to have choices in life he needs to work for it.

I also wonder about the person who commented her DH feels he wasn't pushed enough at school. My sister feels this way but I sometimes wonder how much of a difference it would have made to her life. People that want to learn, will learn and will always find a way. I know people talk about the market place being more competitive nowadays but people with ambition and an eye for what they want in life will always do well regardless of their circumstances.

I also wonder about the person who commented her DH feels he wasn't pushed enough at school. My sister feels this way but I sometimes wonder how much of a difference it would have made to her life. People that want to learn, will learn and will always find a way.

The difference it can make is when a child who isn't pushed enough at school either gets so bored that they stop trying (even n MN, there are stories of very bright children who did VERY badly at their CGSE because of that). Or they get extremely complacent and learn to do as little as possible whilst 'getting away with it' (because they are bright, they dont need to do a lot to be average). That's dc1.
IN either case, both children will have lost their love for learning and their curiosity on the top of having learn very unhelpful patterns of behaviour.

London re your point about the fact that children need to be competitive to be happy and be a high achiever.

I have to say I will disagree mainly because I am happy, I am a high achiever but I have never been competitive (which didn't do me any favour as I was brought up in a school system based on competition).

However, I have one child who IS competitive and a high achiever. And primary school has done nothing about either the high ability nor the competitive side (which would have/has been actively discouraged anyway). The result isn't a good one tbh.

The issue is always the same though. Children aren't evaluated as to whether they achieve the best they can do (or in teachers terms 'working at their levels'), they are evaluated compare to the average or the level they are supposed to get. As long as they achieve that, then teachers are happy.
This is also because being bright and over achieving (see the word OVER rather HIGHER) isn't seen as good outcome in the UK.

I also wonder about the person who commented her DH feels he wasn't pushed enough at school. My sister feels this way but I sometimes wonder how much of a difference it would have made to her life. People that want to learn, will learn and will always find a way. I know people talk about the market place being more competitive nowadays but people with ambition and an eye for what they want in life will always do well regardless of their circumstances.

I agree that there are children who will learn and do well without any outside push (my youngest is like this)

But my son is one of those who wouldn't really have pushed himself but was open to being pushed. We pushed him to take honours classes, put him in a school which would also push him a bit. He is now studying engineering in a good university. I have no doubt whatsoever that left to himself he would have done ok but certainly wouldn't have obtained a place on this course. He is on his own now - we can't push anymore, he is an adult. he will have to do that for himself and he may well be a fairly laid back, non ambitious person who never rises through a company. But he will have a degree and qualification that will start him out well because of the pushing in school.

This is really interesting. I was bright and found school quite easy. I pretty much coasted through my GCSEs. I didn't feel 'pushed' by my parents but then I was quite well behaved too and did do homework and (usually) meet deadlines.

My parents were against grammar schools and I have wondered sometimes if I would have been stretched more if I had gone to a grammar.

But I don't know what difference it would have made in later life. I carried on, I got a good degree and now I am in the real world where non-academic skills really do mean more. Maybe I could have been 'stretched' but I don't think that would have made me intrinsically motivated, quite the opposite probably, although I may have been able to answer some of the questions on university challenge!

(Thinking again, what I DID have was by pushing but a family culture of respecting learning and seeing it as important. And lots and lots of encouragement to enjoy reading and solving puzzles).

*I meant 'not pushing' rather than 'by pushing'

greenginger yes many partners may not do their best but do you think hey would do that because of pressure from school to enforce
More homework? Of course not. These are general
And deep rooted issues.

Yes, it's
Possible to be a well-rounded individual and work "to your best ability at school" that's exactly my point. To YOUR best ability, not what over competitive parents or a school system which focuses too much on grades considers SHOULD be your best ability. That just creates stress and resentment of learning.

It's a mad,mad world when ensuring your children do homework set by school is seen as being over competitive.

Haha, it is indeed. Maybe because the school system in this country is mad

Look at how many parents do not manage to make the kids do their homework! And we're talking about perfectly functional families, not down and out social cases. Once you have a system that normal families and normal children do not thrive in, perhaps it's time to ask yourself if you're doing things right. And while the current governwmnt does not seem anywhere near that, it's obvs up to individual families to protect their children against exaggerated pressure from the school system.

I don't entirely agree with "those who want to learn will find a way "
I wasn't pushed at all at school . Therefore the concept of doing more than just "ok" enough to stay out of trouble and pass my GCSEs wasn't something I really thought about . No one gave me any guidance towards going to university etc just as long as I got a job or did something . My parents never said "what are you passionate about doing " or anything like that. There not bad people at all I guess they just thought I'd do what they all did , leave school , get a job ...
Looking back I wish they had pushed me ! Still, I went to uni in my late 20s ( first person in my family to go) and have a good job now so I guess I got there in the end but there were elements of luck and good financial decisions that led me to be able to afford to do so rather than sheer determination !

Haven't read the full thread so my apologies if covered but how much homework do they get ?? Year 1 here is read 3 times a week , practise spellings and a sheet of maths homework . It's takes a total of about an hour a week!!!

But schools aren't putting exaggerated pressure on children. An hour a week on spellings and tables alongside reading a book at bedtime is nothing. Many can and do do it. Many can and decide not to simply because they can't get arsed.

Xpost

So that is about right then an hour
And yes I also do reading bedtime story together now rather than me just reading it for extra reading practise . I really don't think that's to much at all

My child is only two, so I don't know the full extent of homework in the Eat years. My impression was that it was more than 1 hour a week!? Either way, I think it's quite harsh to say people can't be arsed to do the homework. Families are different and struggle with different situations, and having worked as a substitute teacher I saw many families who had no energy due to difficult
Situations to do homework with their kids. I don't think it's constructive to enforce something many people can't manage. If
You want to do homework with your kid, no one will ever stop you from doing extra things! But don't make it an obligation on everyone, it just puts undue pressure on kids struggling with academia already, and emphasises the difference between homes where parents are resourceful and those where they are less so.

I think it depends on the age where homework is concerned.

My DCs went to school in the US, where they didn't get homework until they were about 6 (in First Grade). Homework consisted of parents hearing their reading, some filling in blanks in sentences from a word bank, learning or refreshing sight words (Dolch words), number families (addition and subtraction) and studying for the end of week addition and subtraction timed tests. Towards the end of that school year they did some 'book reviews', answering the questions Who, What, Where, How, Did you like... and drawing a picture of the main action scene from the story.

When they were 4, in preschool for a total of 8.5 hours per week, they had no homework. They did show and tell weekly, played educational games, worked with shapes and patterns, did little arts and crafts projects in school, sang, listened to stories read aloud to them, learned to be responsible for their belongings and got used to routine. Kindergarten was more of the same but with a smattering of reading readiness and an introduction to numbers. First Grade was where they really stared formal learning. They were 6 at that point.

...a family culture of respecting learning and seeing it as important. And lots and lots of encouragement to enjoy reading and solving puzzles [Drivingmisspotty]
I think this is really, really important.

DD is 6. They've had spelling tests since she was in SI and now they also have tables. We have always done the homework and practiced for their Friday tests, she loves it and is always crushed when she makes a mistake so she prefers to be prepared. With tables she already does negative numbers as she finds the regular ones too simple. Judging from how easy it's for her I think they're more underchallenged rather than putting too high demands on them at this age. We are by no means tiger parents, always let her choose her own pace and stress she needs to understand why is something happening rather than learn it encyclopaedically and she has a natural curiosity about things.