To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

Gemma

Take a look at my post at 10.09.

No hysteria. Just a concern.

Tempo what do you all 'full transitioning'?

Does it include surgery on sexual organs (testes removed) or surgery to get some boots etc...?

"Threads like this write South Park episodes, the hysteria is ridiculous. "

Episodes like Mr Garrison's Fancy New Vagina?
m.youtube.com/watch?v=IJH5AR0CuRI

Sorry it shoud read have some boobs rather than boots!!

HummusForBreakfast

Yes.

HuskyLover wins Homophobic Comment of the Thread. What a bizarre statement.

God, it would be good if we could move the conversation on from loos.

Can we try to? Can we talk about whether transwomen should have absolute access to all women only spaces at all times? And whether non transwomen have any say at all in whether or not they they share space/are cared for by/are treated by a trans woman?

Gemna you probably don't notice the 'angst* about the non engendered disabled toilets because a) they're usually fully enclosed from floor to ceiling with washing facilities and b) usually kept locked, therefore more secure.
But now you mention it, that would be an ideal solution, and one many people on this thread would support. (without the equipment for disabled people). A fully enclosed space, safe for everyone. Funny how transwomen seem to turn that down though, isn't it?

I NEVER let meter readers in when I'm home alone, allow delivery men over the threshold etc. Nor do I use underpasses alone at night or park in empty car parks.
(And I find these easy assumptions that all women DO do those things, like the assumption that we've all used the gents on occasion bizarre.)

But that's easily done. NEVER using a public toilet or changing room would be impossible.

Why do people think they have the right to drastically narrow my options for taking safety precautions? Or exclude me, by default, from community facilities?

Lovely use of the traditional misogynist trope 'hysteria' to put down women's concerns about safety and dignity, GemmaWella. Women, know your place!

"the full change" is misogynist surgery that equates 'being a woman' to 'being a person with a lumpy chest and a hole to stick a dick in'.

The concept of surgery to change sex from male to female is completely rooted in misogyny, its just that hatred of women and our bodies and reduction of us to our bodies is considered culturally acceptable.

I love the fact that people describe women not wanting penises in our spaces as "hysteric".
Educate yourselves on the etymology of the word "hysteric". You will be enlightened as to your own internalized misogyny, the societal misogyny that caused you to use an appropriately misogynist word to express your misogynist ideas, and perhaps you will understand better why you should not accuse women who want to be safe from male violence of being crazy.

Sorry, should have said 'some transwomen' at 11.34.57.
I am aware that some transwomen would be happy with single cubicle toilets and have no wish to intrude on women's toilets.

hummus

There is also a large degree of validation for a trans-woman lesbian if they have sex with a lesbian. The idea being that if a lesbian will sleep with them, i.e. someone who doesn't like male genitalia, it means they are really, really a woman, with a 'lady stick'. It's distressing for lesbians as they are often equally pressured to view trans-women as actual women. It's called the cotton ceiling as a play on glass ceiling, with the 'cotton' representing the gusset in a pair of knickers.

God, it would be good if we could move the conversation on from loos.

Can we try to? Can we talk about whether transwomen should have absolute access to all women only spaces at all times? And whether non transwomen have any say at all in whether or not they they share space/are cared for by/are treated by a trans woman?

Maybe we need a new thread ...

I'm not laughing at you, though. These are good questions and they remain stubbornly unanswered by the TRAs here.

I do accept that trans women in women only spaces make some people feel uncomfortable. But I do think the assumptions behind the discomfort should be challenged. Twenty years ago gay men in the army or in football changing rooms made lots of men feel uncomfortable (and for that matter, gay women in women-only environments.) That discomfort (based on similar ideas as transphobia now is) was the justification for all sorts of bigotry and discrimination. Thankfully the world has moved (or at least, is moving) on.

On the specific case of public toilets (or other single sex spaces) the argument that it somehow 'protects' women to keep trans women out doesn't really add up. If a trans woman should use men-only spaces, surely a trans man should use women-only spaces? In which case it would be possible to have a trans man with full on beard (say) in the ladies loo anyway. So if there really are undercover rapists out to sneak their way into women only spaces they could do so undercover of being trans men anyway. (Tho I've seen no evidence of this ever actually happening... Which isn't to say it never has, I agree, but the evidence is surely at best dodgy.)

And lesbians who state they arent sexually interested in men who identify as lesbians are called "vagina fetishists" and "terfs".

I wish that wasnt a thing, but it is.

And, fwiw, if I had to get changed in front of a trans woman or a lesbian, I'd choose the former.

As someone else already mentioned, most transwoman identify as lesbians (means, they are actually heterosexual males).

So you would rather get changed in front of a male who assures you he is gay/attracted to men (but of course cannot prove that) than in front of a woman who openly admits that she is a lesbian?

(Keep in mind that you have probably already gotten changed in front of lots of lesbians without knowing it.)

I love the fact that people describe women not wanting penises in our spaces as "hysteric".
Educate yourselves on the etymology of the word "hysteric". You will be enlightened as to your own internalized misogyny, the societal misogyny that caused you to use an appropriately misogynist word to express your misogynist ideas, and perhaps you will understand better why you should not accuse women who want to be safe from male violence of being crazy.

This.

I know I've read a lot of trans sites, but even I look at my post and feel weary. It should read:

'A man wants to fuck a woman, using coercion if necessary'.

I've just been musing on the idea of men who I don't know being allowed into female changing rooms because they say the identity as women.
I have a son who is getting to the age where he doesn't want to see me naked and I don't want him to see me naked either. As he gets towards teenage, we will gradually get more and more private with each other as an appropriate sign of respect and dignity for each other. This is a normal way to behave I think?
I also have male friends, some of whom I've known for over 20 years. More years than I care to remember really. I would NEVER consider being naked or in underwear with them, and neither would they. It would be cringingly embarrassing if this was to occur.
I also have a brother and again, have not been unclothed in each other's presence since childhood.
I think I'm not being overly prudish in any of this?
So can anyone tell me why a male who I don't know, but who says he feels like a woman, is someone who I'm expected to feel comfortable being in underwear/naked in front of? How does this unknown man differ from all the other men/boys I do know? Can anyone please explain?

Marmite.

This is so because men commit huge amounts of violence against women and are therefore a threat.

Yeah, speaking of South Park...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cissy

Marmite I think the last thing that women and girls should be doing is "challenging" their boundaries.
It's a really bad and dangerous idea. We are already overly socialised to be nice and polite as it is, which can be dangerous.
Girls should be taught to be able to shout loud and clear, "fuck this I'm not comfortable with this".
That is in direct opposition to being pressured into accepting people who look like men into safe or intimate female spaces.

I am not sure what needs to be challenged

Women want only female spaces to feel safe

So we need to look at why

Mmm we know why

What needs to be challenged is transwomen still carrying their male privilege though they are no longer men