To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

"and also, I have paraphrased bertrand's post. the straw man of bearded men in nursing homes is described, as is the 'misogynistic trope' of an elderly lady feeling uncomfortable. take it up with Bertrand. except you won't."

Take what up with me?

HandbagCrab

Couldn't agree more. I think one of the reasons TRAs hate feminists, is because they do not fit the profile of weak victims, that they find so attractive.

sorry sent too soon.

Women have historically been denied access to services and spaces across 'public' space because men had decided that women shouldnt be allowed in. This isnt just historical - there are still men only golf courses and clubs and boardrooms - though the boardrooms might be sneaky about keeping it that way. Outside of the UK women in different places are denied access to even leaving the home without a chaperone.

If you must have an analogy then work out what you are trying to say - ypur analogy requires an oppressed group and an oplressor group. In this case, female would be analogous to black, then, and male would be analogous to white.

Doesnt matter what the males wear or what they say or what they believe. They can "not all men" or "not all trans" all they want, ite roughly equivalent to "not all whites".

Tbh though if you cant make your point without appropriating and then reversing arguments made by civil rights and Black rights activists then maybe your argument isnt very well thought out.

Hummus - I'm still not 100% sure what you are asking and whether you are asking it of me or of anyone ... but I do agree with your stricter definition of trans.

I also think that women's rights to a whole range of things need to be taken more seriously than what they currently are - but I guess that is a no-brainer.

I'd include the right to women only spaces, intimate care performed by women (on this score I'd extend this to women-born-women) and violence against women taken much more seriously than it is, with real penalties for men who are violent to women. Just the other day there was a thread about a woman terrified of an ex and the response was 'call the police'. I have done that twice when I have been scared of men and each time I have been told not to waste their time, but to call back when 'they had actually done something to me'. In one case I was told to 'wait until he takes a swipe at you'.

I'm rambling here, but these are the kinds of rights that I think women ahould walk into any debate about trans with. If we don't have this as a given, we will end up asking for the basics, whilst our meagre existing rights are trampled. This has happened on this thread, where women have written about real fear of violence to have this dismissed and ridiculed.

Marmite.

Race is a non thing, it's purely a social construct, there's not one iota more of difference between myself and a black person and myself and a person with fair skin and ginger hair. Just genes.

However men and women are different, males have strikingly different anatomies and socialisation.

Bloody hell, YetAnotherSpartacus. That is appalling.

For what it's worth, I think some people minimise the problem not necessarily out of a sense of misogyny, but because they fail to perceive the issue.

That's why I'm always very glad when posters painstakingly reiterate statistics, evidence, film, reports, over and over, time after time without losing their rag.

But also there is very definitely an ingrained sense of misogyny which some people don't even realise they have.

I just can't get worked up about this. There are LOADS of places where you could find yourself alone with a male, or indeed more than one male (trans or otherwise):

Eg:
Lifts
Underpass
Train carriage
Sauna

Also, we let men in to our homes for certain things:

Meter readers
Engineers
Supermarket delivery man
Estate agents

I would imagine, that you'd be more vulnerable in a sauna with a straight man, than in a public toilet with a man who identifies as female.

So, unless you can ensure that the sexes never mix, this is a non issue for me. And you could argue back and forth all day, and never agree.

And, fwiw, if I had to get changed in front of a trans woman or a lesbian, I'd choose the former.

Husky.

Transwoman or lesbian and you choose transwoman?

Oh my god.... laughing too much.

PS. It was worth nothing.

We also need to consider the rights of more conservative women. For example, I know that one of my female Muslim friends is concerned about this issue. If men start using public bathrooms, then she will have to stop using them! How is that fair?

'And, fwiw, if I had to get changed in front of a trans woman or a lesbian, I'd choose the former.'

That's really interesting, and weird.
Given that about 80% of transwomen are attracted to women, and transwomen are male and therefore statistically far more likely to assault you than women of any sexuality, what on earth is your problem with lesbians????

Nice bit of homophobia.

For what it's worth, I think some people minimise the problem not necessarily out of a sense of misogyny, but because they fail to perceive the issue.

I guess I see this as more about active and passive misogyny. The world beats to the drum of passive misogyny (or sexism, if you want a more gentle term) - it colours our common-sense to the extent that many don't notice it.

I would imagine, that you'd be more vulnerable in a sauna with a straight man, than in a public toilet with a man who identifies as female

How do you distinguish between a "straight man" who pretends he identifies as female and a "man who identifies as female"?

*huskylover] you're really just speaking for yourself there.
FYI, plenty of women would be very uncomfortable or refuse using a mixed sauna. Some women feel unable to be alone indoors with a male meter reader or tradesman.
As for your last statement, WTAF?

I would imagine, that you'd be more vulnerable in a sauna with a straight man, than in a public toilet with a man who identifies as female.

Most transwomen are straight. And retain the penises. And I don't generally let the electricity meter be read when I'm sitting down with my knickers round my ankles. Or showering next to him. Or sleeping in a dormitory bed next to him.

Why would I be safer alone in an enclosed space with a man who identifies as female (something he can never be, so == a delusional man) rather than a man who identifies as heterosexual??

Also, the vast majority of men who identify as female are attracted to women (so... are heterosexual). So what youre saying is that we are safer with a heterosexual man who identifies as female than we are with a heterosexual man who identifies as male?!

How does identifying as female make a man safer to be around??

"And, fwiw, if I had to get changed in front of a trans woman or a lesbian, I'd choose the former."

What the fuck with the lesbophobia. For your info, you are WAY safer around lesbians than you are around men, no matter how they identify.

I doubt lesbians feel too safe around you though.

It's not just about safety though is it?

I know plenty of nice men in my social circle who I feel safe around, I certainly wouldn't want to get changed in front of them though.

I don't use the sauna at the public pool because when I did use one at a different pool I could rarely go in there without it being assumed that men could chat me up and / or belittle me (in one case a man chewed me out because I had hairy legs - sexual comments are not always 'complimentary'...). This sauna has a glass front and a door that opens to the pool area. I have never seen a woman in there. I see plenty of men. It is default men's space.

Threads like this write South Park episodes, the hysteria is ridiculous.

Ultimately I have no issue with whatever toilet they use, most of them just want a piss without any other subversive agenda.

I've never seen this much angst about the none engendered disabled toilets.

I thought we'd got past the penis=sexual assault imminent. On the other hand every mother giving birth has the potential to give birth to a........

I guess I see this as more about active and passive misogyny. The world beats to the drum of passive misogyny (or sexism, if you want a more gentle term) - it colours our common-sense to the extent that many don't notice it.

You're right, of course.

Actually I do have a question.

If a transwoman still has a working penis and identifies herself as a lesbian, when the TW has sex, is the TW using her penis/having an erection/ejaculating/expecting blowjobs?

I am v sorry for genuine transwomen who haven't yet completed transitioning, but overall the risk of something as important as this being abused by some men with their own end game outweighs it for me: use the bathroom for the equipment you were born with until you've had the full change, until society evolves sufficiently and there are male, female and both toilets in public areas.

YY about passive misogyny.