To not really understand why some people are so upset by transwomen using public toilets?

[MyGastIsFlabbered]

I'm sorry if this offends, but I really don't understand why this is such a contentious topic. I know transwomen and they just want to pop into a cubicle, do their business and leave. I understand that there is a fear of being attacked, but I honestly think if someone is of a mind to do that they'll do it whether dressed as a woman or not.

This argument isn't about trans women anyway, it's about weirdos or sexual predators who might pretend to be trans to get their kicks or attack women.

Preferring to be naked in the presence of an unknown bloke than in front of a lesbian woman is so odd that it just blows my mind really? Why, just WHY?

Before this thread fills up, I just want to say that what amazes me about almost any trans related thread on MN is that the discussion is like lancing a boil. Aside from a few TRAs and posters who post and run, there are very few who earnestly argue for the trans activist position. Yet, there are so many 'ordinary women' who come out of the woodwork to say that they feel strongly about women's only spaces and / or retaining the definition of women based on biological sex. I am so glad that this sanity prevails here and isn't silenced like it is in most other places. It is interesting that when anonymity and safety are provided that so many women feel safe to speak - and they speak loudly and clearly.

How do we tell the difference between genuine tw and opportunist perverts, Soup?

What is a trans woman? If a trans woman is a type of male, why should identifying as trans (or female) make them less likely to be a sexual predator than any other type of male? We are literally asked to treat them as "not like other men" on the basis that they identify as "not like other men"!

I completely agree. But then I don't see every penis as a threat.

MxMarmite- I replied to a specific point of yours earlier- I'd love your reply if you're still here. This was my post ""I find it rather depressing that there is an assumption that those with penises somehow need to be kept away from those without penises in order to prevent the former attacking the latter."

Right, I absolutely promise that I don't think that. Not for a second. Now please will you address the points that have been made about vulnerable women, and raped women and whether or not they should be cared for by someone with a beard and moustache who identifies as a woman.

"I find it rather depressing that there is an assumption that those with penises somehow need to be kept away from those without penises in order to prevent the former attacking the latter."

Weird, that also works as...
I find it rather depressing that there is an assumption that those with penises in dresses (used for shorthand) somehow need to be kept away from those with penises in trousers in order to prevent the former attacking the latter.

Trousers and dresses used around the wrong way there!!

"I don't see every penis as a threat."

Its not every penis, its any, as in, any could be a threat, so we have to be careful around every one.

Our culture is chock full of examples of women being told they need to be careful what they wear or say around penises. Noone gives it the old "Not All Penises" bullshit when women are being told they invite assault by penis if they dress or speak a certain way.

YetAnotherSpartacus

I agree. And if we keep it measured and stick to the facts, providing evidence and statistics, I think those on the fence start to get it.

How do we tell the difference between genuine tw and opportunist perverts, Soup?

We cannot, which is why it does not matter how violent "true" transwomen are. Even if we are to pretend that they pose no danger at all, it would not matter because they are virtually indistinguishable from rapists. Even the MtT who have their penis removed will look the same as any bloke in a dress while clothed.

And I still cannot get over that person who proclaimed she'd rather get changed in front of a male than a lesbian. Ahaha, I bet she has even been in a public shower together with lesbians already, so it is kinda too late now - unless she always asks all women present if there are lesbians among them.

yetanotherspartacus it always comes down to the same thing.
You either accept science/biology, therefore acknowledging that it is impossible to 'change sex', and therefore a transwoman is still a man.
Or you reject science/biology by stating a transwoman is a woman, or anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman.
The people I come across usually hold the first position. I honestly don't know what I'd do if someone told me that someone like Stephoknee or Daniele Muscato (don't know if correct spelling) is a woman, in real life. I think I'd be gobsmacked, tbh. I just can't deal with that level of lack of common sense.

I do accept that trans women in women only spaces make some people feel uncomfortable. But I do think the assumptions behind the discomfort should be challenged. Twenty years ago gay men in the army or in football changing rooms made lots of men feel uncomfortable (and for that matter, gay women in women-only environments.) That discomfort (based on similar ideas as transphobia now is) was the justification for all sorts of bigotry and discrimination. Thankfully the world has moved (or at least, is moving) on.

Yes - and it should move on in that case.

Maybe one day we will move on to a space where men no longer present a threat to women. Where men do not flash, harass, rape and objectify women and where women's bodies are not pornified and objectified and where women can walk at night and enter enclosed spaces without that familiar (and women here will know what I am talking about) sense of heightened awareness, the quickening of the pulse, the senses on full alert...

But we are not there yet. Maybe when we are things will change ... but right now women's existence is coloured by the very real threat of men's violence and until then women's right to safe spaces must be sacrosanct.

Bertrand I wouldn't hold your breath there. I've been reading (and occassionally posting) on these threads for about a year now, and I don't think anyone has ever really answered a question about patient rights re self identified transgendered carers.
It's just like they ignore any tricky questions. I wonder why. Oh wait, I don't.

I agree Vestal
We can't tell the difference. I keep asking though in case another poster knows something I don't, but no one has been able to answer the question so far

Has anyone mentioned Daventry Muscato Yet? Identifies as a woman yet presents as a man and wants full access to female Spaces?

Puts real mtf at risk because of his actions and Words?

Noeffingidea - yes I agree. There is also an element of 'Emporer's New Clothes' present, where of course women don't believe the biological impossibilities and are not prepared to doublethink ...

It's interesting too that this is on ABIU and not in Feminist Chat - yet the position has still been overwhelmingly pro women's rights.

I've not seen it 'trending' though!

Twenty years ago gay men in the army or in football changing rooms made lots of men feel uncomfortable (and for that matter, gay women in women-only environments.) That discomfort (based on similar ideas as transphobia now is) was the justification for all sorts of bigotry and discrimination.

No, no, nope, nope, nope.

Men are a danger to women because of male violence, not because most of them are attracted to women.

It is denying the male violence and pretending that attraction automatically leads to violence that leads to homophobic fears.

Women who do not want transwomen in our spaces do not want them there because of male violence.
Most of us have no problem whatsoever with lesbians, and even those who say they would feel uncomfortable changing in front of a lesbian would probably acknowledge that a lesbian is not a danger in the way a male (regardless of gender identity) is.

What a depressing read. So many of us here dismissing the very real problem of how everyone can feel safe in public spaces.

Maybe we need to move away from arguing about definitions of gender and sexuality (how many categories do we need for with/without a dick, fancies/doesn't fancy women, born/dresses as/had surgery to become female?).

Maybe we need to focus on the social circumstances which cause violent behaviour (poverty, cultural bigotry), and create public spaces where everyone feels safe.

I don't understand why Bertrand mentioning her elderly female frail relative is being called 'a misogynistic trope.'

Are frail and elderly women not allowed to be mentioned now?

No idea what your post means Pklme.

I'm all for eradicating poverty, but I still don't want to get undressed in front of random men in a changing room.

Maybe we need to focus on the social circumstances which cause violent behaviour (poverty, cultural bigotry), and create public spaces where everyone feels safe.

Eh? how does poverty and cultural bigotry cause men's violence against women?

Twenty years ago gay men in the army or in football changing rooms made lots of men feel uncomfortable (and for that matter, gay women in women-only environments.) That discomfort (based on similar ideas as transphobia now is) was the justification for all sorts of bigotry and discrimination.

We actually have mtf posters on here who have debunked that line of thought.

One of the social circumstances that causes violent behaviour is the deliberate socialisation of males to be masculine (which is sometimes code for 'predator') and females to be feminine (which is sometimes code for 'prey').

To deal with this we can get rid of that socialisation and the related stereotypes. Trans doesnt do this, it just says some predators should be enabled to self define as prey, and vice versa.

While dealing with this issue, regardless of our chosen tactics, the reality is that many people continue to reenact these roles and so the 'prey' class needs space to keep away and safe from those in the 'predator' class.