To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

[winterisnigh]

Op I agree. But how much longer do we need to wait for this penny to drop?
Its like some secret brain washing is going on somewhere I mean how many more years do we have to endure this.

[Theaspizzashop]

gah terrible i give up on my spelling...... any form of racism is horrific and inhumane and pretty primitive in my opinion.

[Weneedarevolution]

Yep that article in The Guardian is the exact equivalent of the DM with it's homophobic, anti democratic front page.

It is NOT reasonable to suggest a thoughtful opinion piece is the same as a hate filled front page that had to be changed.

She argues the case and insults no one. Yes some people insult some people, the OP mentioned a specific article that insults no one.

Seek shows examples of vile bigotry that is no way comparable to an opinion piece in The Guardian.

[Theaspizzashop]

and to add that any viral video ought to be viewed with critical eyes. It's so easy to stir up people's emotion through editing and sound. It's always worth thinking about what is not being said.

[winterisnigh]

The Labour party has done nothing to improve their homes, their schools, their chances of work, their sense of community, their self-worth, their sense of identity. Quite the reverse

This ^^


Trump leaves me pretty speechless. But the sad thing is you can also come up with long lists about HC!

[winterisnigh]

any form of racism is horrific and inhumane and pretty primitive in my opinion

well HC was accused of it!

[Theaspizzashop]

"She argues the case and insults no one. Yes some people insult some people, the OP mentioned a specific article that insults no one." i believe a well argued point is offensive to a lot of right-leaning people who want to see things in black and white. the sheer fact that is is well argued is offensive as it is representative of the educated 'elite'. I'm afraid we are living in the era of simplistic mob mentality at least for the time being.

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

The Labour party has done nothing to improve their homes, their schools, their chances of work, their sense of community, their self-worth, their sense of identity. Quite the reverse

The Labour Party aren't in power! Homes, schools, employment, community etc were not in the parlous state they are now when they were!

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

and to add that any viral video ought to be viewed with critical eyes. It's so easy to stir up people's emotion through editing and sound. It's always worth thinking about what is not being said

What is that supposed to mean? You could hear the words and see them being said! Or do you think the asian shopkeeper, just moments before, had been provoking the thugs by calling them white bastards and breaking into their shops?

[Theaspizzashop]

"I really really hoped you were satirising a stereotypically ignorant viewpoint. But you're actually that stupid. And racist. Idiot." Are you done yet? i could report your post but can't be bothered i rather let it stand. You are part of the problem if you do not a) read my posts:
"the video is appalling. the racists in it utter scum"

"I just hate the shoe discussion about ethnicity and race, we all belong to the human race and skin colour should not matter to anybody in this day and age."

"whether white brown black, all these categories are fucking meaningless they are signifiers of power but it shouldn't be like this."

"what I mean is anyone with basic humanity will not even think about what somebody's skin colour is or at least that's how it ought to be in a civilised society."

"I abhor racism and cannot understand how anybody with a shred of humanity judges people by the skin colour. "

"any form of racism is horrific and inhumane and pretty primitive in my opinion."

However i stand by any viral video ought to be viewed with critical eyes. It's so easy to stir up people's emotion through editing and sound. It's always worth thinking about what is not being said. That video was very stirring and I don't like it.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace have you read my posts? You sound deranged.

[Fawful]

Labour did come up with the NMWage & Sure Start. They couldn't be elected if they promised too much.
What should they have done?

[SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace]

I don't care if you pay lip service to not being racist - when you watch films like that - and do you really think all of them have been somehow doctored? really? - and your first thought is 'racism goes both ways and ethnic people are racist to white people in private', you're showing your true colours, Pizza.

[winterisnigh]

People like Donald Trump and Nigel Farage play on people's fears for their own gain. They know that ill educated, disenfranchised people, searching desperately for anything to improve their lives, will cling to the nonsense that they spout

I think you have got this the wrong way round and many people do. People are not stupid, they live and see whats happening, but the only people who seem to listen to them and admit this - is people like NF and DT.

A poster a while ago said it doesn't matter how many times the media or government tell people a motorway is flowing when they are sat on it, stuck in traffic. And this is what the left have doe, they deny everything, there is no traffic the motorway is fine, but people are sitting stuck in traffic on it.

[Theaspizzashop]

OMG SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace seriously? any video like that is edited to tell a story, in this case that racism is rampant. The scenes in the video, as I said, were horrific and racist, yes undoubtedly so. What do you think the purpose of the video is? What did the 'film maker' intend to say? What's it's message? All worth thinking about. However you insulting me based on your own stirred up anger is fucked up, you know. You are actually sadly proving OP's point...... so sad.

[Weneedarevolution]

Yes racism goes both ways but in the UK it's the white majority that have the power.

[BadKnee]

The video is disgraceful - but not relevant to this discussion as we do not know how the woman voted. Or how she might have voted. She is vile. No question.

There is vileness on all sides, in many people. Lack of education allows it to fester, resentment allows it to grow, competition for resources bring it to the fore. No excuse though. Evil..

Brexit and Trump are not the same. The issues were different, the countries were different, the people voting were different.

Left/right divisions are unhelpful. No-one can really agree on which policies are right and which are left. Trump is planning huge spending on infrastructure - whether you believe him or not - that is a traditional left-wing policy. Open market for jobs is really a capitalist policy - increase supply of cheap labour to drive wages down - so Brexit was a vote to control the labour market to some extent - to force employers to pay a fair wage to local people. It all depends on how you look at it.

It is really about people voting for the type of society they want to see, and that is a society that benefits them. About people wanting to belong to a tribe of people who think like they do and hold similar values.

No-one votes for something that they truly believe will impact negatively on the lives of themselves and their children - they just don't.

[Fawful]

So you'd like Labour to say there are too many immigrants too, basically, it's about Corbyn & open borders, you wish he 'saw it' too, nevermind NMW or Sure Start, Labour never saw the true reason of all ills in this country?

[PausingFlatly]

But Hackmum, it isn't stupid to vote for a lying, sexually-assaulting, draft-dodging, tax-evading, racist misogynist if you share those values.

It also isn't stupid to vote for a lying, sexually-assaulting, draft-dodging, tax-evading, racist misogynist even if you don't share those values but think (rightly or wrongly) s/he will serve your special interest.

There are many words to describe this, but stupid ain't one.

Fundamentally a lot people really don't care whether a politician is lying, a misogynist, a racist or whatever, as long as s/he's hitting their sweet spot on things they actually care about.

In fact there's a long list of things different people will enjoy getting all frothily outraged at an opponent for, but will ignore completely in their own guy/gal. Issues that just aren't that important to that particular voter, however much noise they make when expedient.

This isn't a phenomenon particular to right, left, rich, poor, black people or white people. And it's not stupid. Nakedly self-interested and a whole host of other things, but not stupid.

[roseship]

The Guardian wants to create a narrative where Trump's election is causing racism against blacks/hispanics/Muslims, etc.

However the reverse seems to be the case:

white man carjacked and beaten for supporting Trump www.fox32chicago.com/news/local/216687382-story

11-year-old boy brutally beaten for supporting Trump by his classmates www.fox26houston.com/news/216600137-story

teenage girl attacked for supporting Trump www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3925186/High-school-student-attacked-school-yard-posting-support-Trump-Instagram.html

Muslim woman made up false report about being attacked by Trump supporters www.mediaite.com/online/police-muslim-student-fabricated-report-about-being-assaulted-by-man-in-trump-hat/

The insistence from the left that supporting Trump means you are a racist and/or rapist, means that people have seen this as a green light to attack them. After all if you are constantly told that Trump supporters are literally Hitler, why who wouldn't want to kill Hitler?

[hackmum]

PausingFlatly: "But Hackmum, it isn't stupid to vote for a lying, sexually-assaulting, draft-dodging, tax-evading, racist misogynist if you share those values."

That's why I said that "stupid" was the kindest thing you could say about them. It implies that people voted for him because they didn't really realise how dreadful he was. The alternative is that they voted for him in full knowledge of what he's like - and that's rather more chilling.

[BadKnee]

Seek - I know the Labour Party are not in power.

I talked about how happy I was in 1997, the way I watched with increasing disillusionment as in that whole period things got worse. Why do you think they lost power after 13 years - and it had all got worse.

[BadKnee]

(On R4 at the moment - just mentioned the 10p tax break. Bloody hell that was sneaky. who did that hit hardest?)

[PausingFlatly]

A poster a while ago said it doesn't matter how many times the media or government tell people a motorway is flowing when they are sat on it, stuck in traffic.

On that same thread, I pointed out that what some groups have done is claim that the traffic on the motorway is being caused by the Lesbian Separatist Protected Zone over the hill.

Which is brilliant, because it mobilizes people against the nasty Lesbians who cause traffic jams and gobble Hard-Working Families'™ money, and are just generally Bad.

While meaning they don't actually have to fix the traffic. Because, meh, can't do anything till we've eradicated the Lesbians.

The fact the LSPZ is pure fiction will have no impact with some people. (I've genuinely had very similar conversations taxi drivers.)

[BadKnee]

On a personal note my DS - (ASD - in his first term at mainstream school for three years) was asked in class on Weds who he supported in the US election. He hasn't a clue - not really up to a debate - the only name he had heard was Trump, (who hasn't heard it??) - put on the spot he said Trump. The boy next to him moved seats. The class jeered. The teacher smirked, ( he must be a fascist so it's ok, right)

He doesn't even know who our PM is. But hey.