To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

[bakewelltarty]

Badknee - I've not seen anyone state that at all????

First there was no name calling then there was no telling anyone that they are wrong and we are right but we are being accused of this.

We are allowed to give an opinion on what we think the issues are. However it seems as soon as we do we are shouted down for 'name calling' . Why ?????

[BadKnee]

No, no-one stated it - it is implicit in comments like:

They are losing because of the stupid voters voting for the likes of Trump. Don't blame "the left" from user

But is all over the other threads on these subjects.

[Pickthatup]

"Whereas those who voted for Trump and Brexit did so to turn time back for their personal benefit, those who voted for remain or Hillary Clinton did so because they know time only moves forward, and this benefits society."

slow hand clap

[Weneedarevolution]

Ffs who is patronising who?

The OP claims the article fits this model:

"core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates. "

I disagree having read the article. I don't think the writer says this at all.

How is it patronising to say "please prove me wrong".
I could say " of course you are correct, everything you believe is true, have £350 million for the NHS, there, there dear". But I won't say that because that is patronising.

[BadKnee]

I absolutely agree that we should give an opinion. I absolutely want to debate the issues - and have on so many threads, (under different names as I am a frequent name-changer for privacy reasons).

The problem is that while the assumption is that there can be no possible reasons for voting for Trump or Brexit, (two totally different decisions), other than wrong-thinking for whatever reasons, (stupidity, misguidedness, racism), and the object is only how to prove that the voters are wrong then the issues cannot be debated at all. And yes, the left will never win.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Saw this yesterday.

Hmmmmm....

[Weneedarevolution]

Pickthatup that's it? That is an insult? That is someone hurling abuse? That kind of rhetoric will turn people off politics? Well you are a sensitive flower. This is entirely comparable to discussing "grabbing pussy".

She is pointing out that large portions of white America want to return to the fifties when white men were in charge (Jim Crow anyone?) and there was a sufficiency of well paid manufacturing jobs. I think when Trump says he will "make America great again" that is the past to which he is referring.

[bakewelltarty]

I've explicitly said that no one should be called stupid.

I find it frustrating that people believed and voted for Trump. He won't represent the less well off that voted for him and who felt they needed the 'change' he would give. He will however, represent the traditional hard right, high earners that also voted for him. So these people have effectively voted against themselves.

As I said, when you are down you look around for hope and help. He played on this and lied and lied. The fact he is a sexist, racist bigot mattered not a jot. In fact he enabled people to feel free to spout the same bile. He made people feel that others were to blame. Let's laugh at the disabled and call out Mexicans for being rapists. Lets stop all Muslims from entering the country.Let's degrade women and put them in their place. Yeah we can make America great again!!!

It's how society works unfortunately.

[user1478551766]

So how come that Trump won when he hurls insults at everyone, all the time?

You're not making any sense.

[BadKnee]

Weneedarevolution - of course you are right that would be patronising. Just as it would be patronising to take any promise made by a politician and do the same.

Or to say "Yes, yes, of course the EU wasn't wasting huge amounts of money - all those meetings in Strasbourg were completely necessary"

Either way it is unhelpful. Let's look at the problems and start from there. What are the real problems for the white working class, for the "squeezed middle", for the new immigrant, for our city centres, for the Polish worker on zero-hours, for the black teen boys, for the rural areas, for ex-industrial towns? What are those problems? And how can we truly address them?

Then put together some policies, then work on getting the votes.

[Pickthatup]

Chill out love. It's a statement akin to the Bush one on terrorism.

[Weneedarevolution]

Milk so people say things that we know are wrong. We Know, surely we know calling Mexican's rapists is wrong. We know don't we that mocking disabled people is wrong? When someone says something this wrong what should we do? Laugh? Agree with them? Tell them they have a point?

Now that, doing that, agreeing with someone when you know they are wrong that is patronising. "Of course dear, I won't upset you". I refuse to patronise people by giving credence to views I know to be wrong. ( talking about Trump there not Brexit)

[WrongTrouser]

I completely agree OP. To all those saying the linked article doesn't say this, that and the other about voters, please reread the OP who is not saying it does. The article is an example of an attitude, although relating to the elections in USA, but there are plenty of examples in the British press relating to Brexit etc.

And here is a lovely example from Polly Toynbee in yesterday's Guardian which I think clearly demonstrates what the OP is saying.

Brexit and Trump mark a whitelash. Politicians must not pander to it | Polly Toynbee

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/brexit-trump-whitelash-politicians-must-not-pander

Just to give you a sample -

Most Labour MPs are in Brexit seats, where white supremacism won the day

I am actually beginning to think that Toynbee is the right's secret weapon.

[KathArtic]

Votes for Brexit and Trump were virtually 50/50 - so that must include both left and right, men and women, white and black, rich and poor, educated and stupid, metropolis and rustbelt.

Who knows why Trump really won?

[Weneedarevolution]

Only 8% of black American women who voted, voted for Trump.
92% of the vote in Washington DC went to Clinton.

America is split along race, class and education divides.

[Twogoats]

I completely agree, and I'm a leftie.

The left wing have become so smug, patronizing, and sanctimonious lately. Many of them come across as racist themselves with statements like: "working class white men would never vote for a black man" etc

They shut down genuine debates by shouting 'racism' at any opportunity.

Never thought I'd say this, but they need to be more open minded and accepting of other people's views!

[WrongTrouser]

Whereas those who voted for Trump and Brexit did so to turn time back for their personal benefit, those who voted for remain or Hillary Clinton did so because they know time only moves forward, and this benefits society


Pickthatup that's it? That is an insult? That is someone hurling abuse? That kind of rhetoric will turn people off politics? Well you are a sensitive flower. This is entirely comparable to discussing grabbing pussy

Weneed Do you really not think it is insulting to say that people who voted leave did so for their own personal benefit whereas people who voted remain did so for the benefit if society?

So leavers are essentially selfish people and remainers care about society? How is that not insulting?

[Bluebolt]

I remember after the general election the vile against Tory voters without questioning the incompetent ed milliband. Just one sided shit throwing. Debate has been lost.

[BadKnee]

I don't know any Trump voters personally so I can't comment.

Aside from his personal qualities and some of his views, (and Hillary would not be a friend I'd choose either), Trump may well just change America for the better for some people. He may not - we don't know - but would Hillary have done so? Did Obama, (who was adored almost to sainthood by some)? A lot of Americans thought not.

Trump is clearly horrible. I was horrified at some of the things he said - but in the end people voted for who they thought would do the best for the country and them, NOT who was nice. They may well be wrong. We shall see.

I voted for Tony Blair and remember walking to work having stayed up all night ecstatic in 1997! I was so very full of hope! And now???

I know lots of Brexit Leave voters. Several are gay, all the ones I know personally are very highly educated including a judge, two with Firsts from Oxbridge, two black, one asian, several teachers, an economist....(All London except two). And that is just from my own personal circle of people who talked about how they voted. There are reasons for that vote - discussed at length on threads at the time - and it might turn out to be fine.

[havingabadhairday]

Randy I've been insulted many, many times by people on the right and supporters of the Conservatives. Intolerance of opposing political views is not purely a left wing thing

[PrettyBotanicals]

The racism, hatred and bile spewed in the last 72 hours has been astonishing.

From the so-called tolerant left.

I hope you're not teaching your kids to meet differing opinions (politics, religion,sexual voice) with the closed-minded venom I've been hearing.

[BadKnee]

havingabadhairday - you are right. Mudslinging on all sides

The problem is being accused of being a loony lefty is not quite the same as being accused of racism, sexism or homophobia - all of which if "proved" can destroy a career and lead to legal consequences.

[WrongTrouser]

What amazes me is the lack of self-questioning of those people on the left who resort to a flurry of name calling when things don't go their way. If your politics and world view lead you to think that 37% of the UK electorate and nearly half of the USA electorate are - delete as appropriate - (racist/stupid/uneducated/duped etc), wouldn't that lead you to consider whether perhaps it is time to reassess your world view?

I agree with the OP that the failure to stop hurting insults and instead try to understand what is happening does suggest a lack of analytical skills.

[Itinerary]

Labour always seemed to be the anti-establishment party years ago. Unfortunately, a lot of today's well-known Labour figures are champagne socialists, clueless pampered types, and rich luvvies, who behave as if anywhere outside London doesn't exist, except to be ridiculed and patronised.

No wonder many people no longer feel they're a party which represents them.

[user1471439240]

Virtue signalling on platforms such as Twitter, mainly.
Its hard to reason with 140 characters, easier to call names and cry "ism" .