To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

Wrongtrouser she is not being nice because she disagrees with them but she is not being insulting. She is putting forward an argument people might not agree with but she is not being insulting. She is pointing out why she thinks they are wrong but she is not being insulting. In political discourse you can disagree but she is insulting no one.

Calling someone who has been convicted of nothing a criminal is insulting.
Referring to women as pussy is insulting.
Implying all Mexicans are rapists is insulting.

I absolutely do teach my kids that when someone insults someone because they are disabled, a woman, a Mexican they should tell them they are wrong.

If someone mocked a disabled person what would you want your children to do, tell them it's wrong or vote for them?

User**766...

OOI, why do you think they are voting for the likes of Trump?
Could this be part of the issue?

"It's the white working class male that has made a big difference. For years he has been told to welcome immigration even if it costs him his job or lowers his wages. He has to accept free trade and see his job moved to China. He perceives minorities winning out, blacks gays, even disabled but no one helps him. He sees bias towards women in employment but again not to him. And then he's looked down on as uneducated and told what he should think by the media and politicians."

I am a long time Labour/Lib Dem voter. I live in London - but even here when I listen to the Labour party I think "These people don't represent me!".

I do some work with people on the large council estates who are in trouble. The Labour party has done nothing to improve their homes, their schools, their chances of work, their sense of community, their self-worth, their sense of identity. Quite the reverse.

You can't stop us from expressing our dislike of politicians pandering to people's prejudices for their own gains, OP. There must be a party out there that represents you, what is it you want?
People with critical thinking skills will carry on using them to guess why people of all origins are willing to vote for politics that go against their financial interests but promise curbs in immigration.
It's mainly the rich that voted for Trump btw.

So is Dennis Skinner self-serving according to the author of this article? I'd love to see her deliver that news to him.

The trouble is the left shout down and insult at every opportunity (see MN for example), so much so that the right wingers eventually do shut up, almost too embarrassed to admit their views. Then, when it comes to polling day and the right wingers have their say everyone is shocked at the result. Even the right wingers.

The left hate men, men are autonomous, able to fend for themselves, ultimately not tied to raising children.
The left are big state, need people reliant and subservient to them.
I proffer that men have realised this en masse.

Let's look at Trump. He openly mocked the mannerisms of a disabled journalist. He insulted the father of a man whose son died for his country. He belittled John McCain, who spent more than five years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, saying that he preferred soldiers who managed not to get themselves captured. (This is having dodged the draft himself.) He accused all Mexicans of being rapists. He said he wanted to keep all Muslims from entering the US.

He boasted about sexually assaulting women, grabbing them by the "pussy". He refused to publish his tax returns, more or less admitting that he evaded paying taxes. He threatened to have his political opponent thrown in jail, even though she has not been found guilty of any wrongdoing. He implied that it would be a good thing if she was assassinated. He encouraged his supporters at rallies to shout "Lock her up", and at his rallies many of them carried voodoo Hillary dolls with pins in the eyes. He repeatedly claimed the current president was not born in the US, an out and out lie.

He told hundreds of lies throughout the campaign. This isn't just an accusation: this is well-documented. You can look them up if you like.

I could go on. But knowing all this, 50 million people still voted for him. They voted for a vile, lying, sexually-assaulting, draft-dodging, tax-evading, racist misogynist. Are we supposed to tilt our heads sympathetically and say, "I understand your pain, voters"? In the face of all this, frankly, "stupid" is absolutely the kindest thing you could say about them.

The issues are a lot more nuanced than you make out.

Firstly the electorate have shown that they will tolerate and reward lying, hurling abuse at opponents and "other"ing with electoral success. So to suggest to liberals they behave differently is illogical.

People often vote for a variety of reasons. So some of the Evangelical women and Cuban Hispanics (protected by law as refugees in the US so different from other Hispanics) may have voted for Trump for his anti abortion stance and decided to ignore the sexual abuse and racism.We need to raise the issue of sexual abuse and racism to be the priority issues; so need to be called out more rather than less. Avoiding challenge for fear of embarrassing part of the vote will not bring electoral advantage in the medium and long term.

Thirdly, there is a wave of "populism" which argues "the will of the people" is more important than the rule of law, sovereignty of parliament etc. Whilst it obviously the will of a select part of the population (media barons, billionaires, currency traders spring to mind), they offer attractively seductive answers and "hope" to ordinary people but do not stand up to close scrutiny. See the article about world wide rise of populism and how to counter it at www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/11/populists-us?CMP=share_btn_tw

Issues like judicial independence and parliamentary sovereignty are fundamental to democracy so critics should be challenged regardless of politics and it good to see those on the right who get that. Short term election advantage in return for weakening an important plank of democracy is very dangerous game.

Hackmum has it nailed.

See that's the problem hackmum you have put together a well thought out, reasoned argument that you can support with evidence.

You are just shouting people down and insulting them. You and your logical, thoughtful comments, patronising bitch.

Thank you Hackmum, perfect summary.

Here are the left, hurling insults -

Here they are again -

People voted for change even with all the horrific aspects with Trump, he was the only person giving any opportunity to change the status quo (I do not believe any change will happen). Hillary with the speaking about feminism and inclusivity whilst surrounded by rich luvies who the females still feel the need to show their arses. Hillary offered nothing new to people who feel they have nothing to loose and have not got the time to wait for politicians to mirror them. Political elite are as much to blame as the voters.

hackmum I agree with you.
OP YABU, look at the British right-wing / right-leaning gutter press, they are in the business of generating revenue by hurling abuse at people who are not WASP and fostering a hostile atmosphere where people who aren't WASP don't feel safe.

Why is it the left are always being demanded to appeal to the middle man and held 'accountable for the speech of those with likeminded values' but they can't ask trump or his voters to do the same?

I'm honestly sick and tired in trying to engage with people who voted for Brexit and voted for Trump. I've tried to reason and present logical arguments. I've tried to see it from a place that's not just xenophobia or bigotry. But they are all I am met with and answers such as 'I voted that way because of immigration' are the only answers I receive. For my own mental health I'm sorry but I'm sick of pandering to you.

And I do not believe people voted progressively for change but regressively to reclaim power; white reactionary males want it all back.

Hackmum, I agree.

I do find it interesting that if I criticize Brexit or Trump, or debate with the people who voted/approve of them, I am invariably called a left-winger.

That's surely a fundamental misunderstanding right there.

"Waah waah, the lefties are mean to us! I mean, we have all the power, all the money, all the world, but those damn lefties are insulting us and its hurting our feelings!"

Give it a fucking rest! "The right" has got EVERYTHING now. We don't have to be fucking nice to them as well.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace the video is appalling. the racists in it utter scum. but let's remember that racism goes both ways and the are plenty of ethnic people talking in similar ways about white people, maybe not in public so much but among themselves. I just hate the shoe discussion about ethnicity and race, we all belong to the human race and skin colour should not matter to anybody in this day and age. whether white brown black, all these categories are fucking meaningless they are signifiers of power but it shouldn't be like this.

let's remember that racism goes both ways and the are plenty of ethnic people talking in similar ways about white people, maybe not in public so much but among themselves

Are you joking, Pizza? I'll wait until you confirm either way before responding.

what I mean is anyone with basic humanity will not even think about what somebody's skin colour is or at least that's how it ought to be in a civilised society.

of course I'm not joint seek I abhor racism and cannot understand how anybody with a shred of humanity judges people by the skin colour. However the video is about white on 'brown' racism which is shit and brexit has given rise to this people feel emboldened to express their abhorrent views publicly. I also personally know that it is not uncommon among non-white ethnic groups to express racist views about whites. I knows this because I have witnessed it.

*joking