To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

[WrongTrouser]

Weneed Also

You may say I voted remain because I don't care about sovereignty. I think you are wrong but I am not insulted

This is my point. I wouldn't say "you voted remain because you don't care about sovereignty", because I haven't asked you why and you haven't told me. So never mind whether it would be insulting or not, it would an assumption and would be based on absolutely no information.

That is exactly what some on the left are doing - they are making assumptions based on stereotypes and zero information and the assumptions are both insulting and wrong.

[gratesnakes]

Trump did slightly better than Romney among every racial or ethnic group. Clinton did slughtly worse than Obama. It only takes a marginal change to get a different party in. The population of the US is still the same largely well-intentioned mob today as it was when it voted Obama in. Some of them decided that they needed a shift to pro-growth economics. Maybe they were right.

[Slarti]

Personally I don't think the premise of this thread holds water. For someone to agree with left wing policies but be convinced to vote against them on account of "name-calling" seems pretty far fetched to me. It's a bit like claiming everyone really supported civil rights or equality for women but were "put off" because those who opposed it were labelled as racist and sexist.

[WrongTrouser]

I may well be wrong about people who voted for Obama voting for Trump. I haven't looked at the figures in that much detail so am happy to be corrected if that was incorrect.

I stand by the rest of my comments.

[winterisnigh]

That is exactly what some on the left are doing - they are making assumptions based on stereotypes and zero information and the assumptions are both insulting and wrong.


^^ Great post Wrong, its not only all those things you list but the main point is - its turning people away from them.

[NotDavidTennant]

The Obama voters didn't like Hillary and stayed at home.

Exactly, so the "loads of Trump supporters must have voted Obama last time so they can't be racist" meme has no basis in fact.

[winterisnigh]

wrong without a doubt many hispanics and minorities voted for trump.

however I am sure someone will be along to twist stats into only wealthy white people or ONLY REDnecks from rust belt voted for him.

[Weneedarevolution]

wintetisnigh many minorities did NOT vote Trump.

Top of my head as I have to go out.
92% of black women voted for Clinton.
In Florida, Hispanics for Trump was around 30%

We don't have zero information.

[HamsterTastic]

If you for a racist misogynistic twat who hasn't got your interests at heart because someone called you stupid (for considering voting for a racist twat who hasn't got your Interests at heart) well..

[WrongTrouser]

To go back to the OP, and in answer to Slarti the problem is not just that insulting people will lose the left votes. It is that this attitude towards people who didn't vote the way some on the left hoped, means that engagement becomes nearly impossible and the gulf between the left and the people it claims to "represent" or want to improve the lives off becomes wider and wider. The policies then become less and less close to what people actually want because no-one is listening to them.

It's not about the left gaining seats or power for the sake of it, it's so that they can use this to represent people's interests. But they can't do this if there is no dialogue and people are just silenced with shouts of racist/stupid/duped etc rather than listened to.

[HamsterTastic]

It's just not true that minorities who voted for Obama didn't bother this year. Many couldn't vote. Do you think young black people are stupid and could afford to ignore this election? Fuck no. They didn't have the privilege of letting him win.

www.thenation.com/article/the-gops-attack-on-voting-rights-was-the-most-under-covered-story-of-2016/

[NotDavidTennant]

only wealthy white people or ONLY REDnecks from rust belt voted for him

Nobody has ever said that only X group of people have voted for Trump (or Clinton). You're just arguing for effect.

[WrongTrouser]

And also Slarti we vote for people because we think we can trust them to represent our concerns and make our lives better (or at least not worse). I think you may be underestimating the effect on how people vote of how they see the particular party as percieving them. It's not like saying, oh I won't vote for that candidate because he said he didn't like my haircut, is it? If someone understands you so poorly that, when you make a choice for what you think is the benefit of your family and community, you are called names and told you are a selfish, racist idiot, why oh why would you trust the person who insulted you in that way to understand and represent your interests? You would be daft to do so.

[StrictlyPan]

Getting directly back to the OP, this video emerged yesterday on twitter...

Jonathan Pie has a politico/left leaning channel and he sort of eviscerates the 'left' for being so up themselves (and he identifies as a leftie) and ignoring the needs of all voters and how we replace debate with insult to whosoever disagrees with us.
6 mins of uncomfortable viewing, esp re listening to your own echo chamber

[Badbadbunny]

The common excuse from the lefties is that they didn't get their message across properly and that people didn't understand their message.

No..

They did get their message across, people did understand the message, but they don't agree with their message!

[user1478551766]

They did get their message across, people did understand the message, but they don't agree with their message!

Some of them understood the message, some of them did not. Don't overestimate the intelligence of people who vote.

[NotDavidTennant]

If someone understands you so poorly that, when you make a choice for what you think is the benefit of your family and community, you are called names and told you are a selfish, racist idiot, why oh why would you trust the person who insulted you in that way to understand and represent your interests? You would be daft to do so.

The problem is this:

If I were to state that a lot of people who voted for Trump are racist, I would simply be asserting what I perceived to be an objective fact. You and others would see it as insulting or name-calling.

That's why I don't think there can be a meeting in the middle on this, as we are interpreting what is said from two completely different contexts.

[Justanotherlurker]

Don't overestimate the intelligence of people who vote.

And remember that is just as true to the left and right.

The implication you are trying to prove is along the lines of the OP.

[user1478551766]

The majority are rather stupid, its just that some are stupider than others.

[Bluebolt]

Love the Jonathan Pie video but in all honesty I think it is going to take the real far far right such as Le Penn winning before the message sinks in.

[Justanotherlurker]

The majority are rather stupid, its just that some are stupider than others.

At least your one of the enlightened ones though....

[StrictlyPan]

I fear you are right Blue. IF we can't learn from 2015, Brexit and now this, in the words of Oleta Adams, songstress "Will we EVER learn?"

[derxa]

The Jonathan Pie video was right. But very few here will listen.

[WrongTrouser]

If I were to state that a lot of people who voted for Trump are racist, I would simply be asserting what I perceived to be an objective fact. You and others would see it as insulting or name-calling

So can I ask you NDT what percentage of the people who voted for Trump you know to be racist and what your evidence for this us?

nb this is a genuine, non goady question, I am trying to understand your point. Most of my comments refer more to Brexit as I don't know a huge amount about politics in the USA.

[derxa]

If I were to state that a lot of people who voted for Trump are racist, I would simply be asserting what I perceived to be an objective fact. One person's definition of racism is not another's.