To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

[WrongTrouser]

Wrongtrouser she is not being nice because she disagrees with them but she is not being insulting. She is putting forward an argument people might not agree with but she is not being insulting. She is pointing out why she thinks they are wrong but she is not being insulting. In political discourse you can disagree but she is insulting no one

Weneed I totally disagree with you. I have a very good standard of living and a good life. I did not vote leave for myself. I voted leave for my children and descendants and my community. For someone to say that I (and all leave voters) did so for selfish reasons is an insult. It insults the core of my being and my values. To say all leave voters have base motivations and all remain voters noble values is insulting. It is also "othering" and dehumanising. When I think about other people's motivations my assumption is that most people's minds probably work in a fairly similar way to mine i.e. if I disagree with someone I tend to assume they have made their decision in good faith and as a decent human being rather than just assuming they must be some sort of lesser being (obviously there are limits if someone is running round murdering people but we are not talking about extremes here we are talking about huge swathes of the population).

So she is being insulting and she is also wrong. How does she know why I voted like I did? Why not try to listen, think and understand rather than just write me of as a selfish person who doesn't care about anyone else? That is not who I am and it is not who many people who voted leave I know are.

[Stripyhoglets]

Just because I'm left wing doesn't mean I have to politely accept racist and sexist view points as having any validity at all. And I won't. I will call them out for exactly what they are.

[gratesnakes]

If you have a choice of two dodgy candidates and you want tax cuts and infrastructure investment it is right to vote for the one who is promising that. Even if it is Trump.

[Theaspizzashop]

BadKnee that is horrible. How can his teacher allow this to happen? He is surely aware of your de's situation? That is so hostile and taunting, sorry that happened to your poor ds . I'd definitely complain.

[Fawful]

(My previous post was to winter)

Flatly it an be argued a president not interested in climate change and wanting to remove business regulations is never going to serve anyone's real interest.


I talked about how happy I was in 1997, the way I watched with increasing disillusionment as in that whole period things got worse. Why do you think they lost power after 13 years - and it had all got worse.

What got worse? Apart from the world recession? What did people not like about Brown? I never did understand. I think the conservatives said he was planning on spending too much, and that austerity was needed, wasn't that what the papers were making people angry about back in the day?

[WrongTrouser]

Yep that article in The Guardian is the exact equivalent of the DM with it's homophobic, anti democratic front page

It is NOT reasonable to suggest a thoughtful opinion piece is the same as a hate filled front page that had to be changed

I don't get this. I don't think anyone is saying that the two are equivalent.

There seems to be a lot of posters on this thread saying that as racists are throwing round racist insults etc etc, then it is okay for some on the left to hurl insults at people they disagree with. How does that work? Shall we all just start insulting each other now?

Do you fight intolerance and hate and sterotyping with intolerance and hate and stereotyping?

It's quite bizarre.

[PausingFlatly]

Oh indeed, Fawful, I'm not suggesting any given candidate is actually going to deliver better lives to the people they persuaded to vote for them. Often it's quite the opposite.

[Godstopper]

My issue with Trump voters is not one of right-wing policies. No. It is one of being appalled by someone who thinks it morally acceptable, and indeed a positive thing, to have a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, disabilist, Islamophobic, misogynistic, tax evading climate change denier representing the most powerful country in the world.

Those are not merely labels that have no substance in reality. Reacting with horror is a perfectly rational response.

[IPityThePontipines]

Does "it had all got worse" mean "there were more immigrants" as domestically, things improved hugely during the Labour gov't, up until the global (big clue there) economic crash.

Also, hackmum's post is great.

This idea that we are meant to say "there, there" to racism and stupidity, is ridiculous.

[Justanotherlurker]

It frustrates me when people say Trump isn't racist. Don't they understand that enforcing border controls are racist if the barrier is a wall? We should keep the fence that Hillary supports. Walls are racist, fences aren't.

[WrongTrouser]

To take Godstoppers post, which seems perfectly reasonable to me

My issue with Trump voters is not one of right-wing policies. No. It is one of being appalled by someone who thinks it morally acceptable, and indeed a positive thing, to have a racist, xenophobic, homophobic, disabilist, Islamophobic, misogynistic, tax evading climate change denier representing the most powerful country in the world

Those are not merely labels that have no substance in reality. Reacting with horror is a perfectly rational response

So one is horrified that Trump has been elected. Fair enough. So how do you react ?

Do you say - well I don't understand why people voted for Trump rather than Clinton so it must be because they agree with the racist, disability etc comments he has made.

Or do you, say, I don't understand why people voted for Trump but it seems unlikely that many people who voted for Obama at the last election should have turned into racists in the meantime so perhaps there are other factors going on.

And perhaps rather than vilifying people on the other side of the world when really, here in the UK, it is unlikely that I will understand the true situation in America as well as people who are in America perhaps I should try to understand what made people, including many women, vote for someone who appears so unappealing.

[Weneedarevolution]

The OPs point was voters don't like being called stupid and she quoted this article. As you say you don't agree with the content. Fine.

But the content is not insulting. You don't agree with it but you are not called stupid. You have to work to find insult in that article. You may say I voted remain because I don't care about sovereignty. I think you are wrong but I am not insulted.

You think she is wrong, fine. She thinks you are wrong, fine. You don't like her argument but she does not say or imply that you are stupid . So why does the OP use this as an example of people being called stupid.

If this article is an example of the left hurling insults then you really are a bunch of over sensitive mard arses we are looking for offense.

[KathArtic]

Sadly the only options open to the Americans was HC, DT or not to vote at all - which of these are the best?

[gratesnakes]

Good sensible post Wrongtrouser

[hackmum]

"I talked about how happy I was in 1997, the way I watched with increasing disillusionment as in that whole period things got worse."

I'm a bit puzzled by this, because although I'm not a fan of Blair, the one thing he did do was to pour money into schools, the NHS and public services generally. And you definitely saw the impact of that in terms of things like new school buildings, improved results, shorter NHS waiting times etc.

Anyway, back to Trump. I think at one level, voting for someone who will repeal the climate change legislation is voting against their own self-interest, because climate change affects all of us, and it certainly affects our children and grandchildren. In a way, it might not matter much because I think we've already lost the fight against climate change, but I do think that voting for someone who claims not to believe, in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence, that climate change isn't happening, is short-sighted to say the least.

Obviously there is a reasonably-sized constituency of people who voted for Trump because they think he will create jobs, principally through things like ripping up trade deals, investing in big infrastructure projects (building that wall is going to keep an awful lot of people occupied, right?) and reducing immigration so that jobs can go to people born in the US. Now I can see why that might be superficially attractive, but even a cursory glance at Trump's record as a businessman shows that he has no interest in giving jobs to Americans or paying them a fair wage. He has repeatedly employed people in low-wage countries such as China to make his products for him.

So even if we accept that people are voting out of clear-headed self-interest rather than stupidity, then they are almost certainly going to be disappointed. It seems hugely unlikely that Trump will implement a set of policies that will result in the creation of lots of new, well-paid jobs for Americans. I may, of course, be wrong - and I'm quite curious to see whether he does in fact do any of the things he promised he was going to do, given his long track-record of lying.

[BirdInTheRoom]

I agree OP - this latest video from Jonathan Pie explains it brilliantly.

[WrongTrouser]

If your post was addressed to me Weneed I didn't say she said I was stupid, I said she said I was selfish, and that that is insulting.

You may disagree. But this is the point the OP started the thread about. If you want to deny that someone telling me that I voted leave for entirety selfish reasons is insulting me, do carry on. But people will be insulted by these sort of comments (well actually its the attitude behind them rather than the comments themselves which I think you know really) and the point of the OP is that carrying on insulting people is not doing the left any favours.

I also think you are, perhaps deliberately, perhaps not, missing the wider issue of the OP. The linked article, as the OP explained, was not a direct example.

Can I ask what you think of Polly Toynbee's article and her Brexit = white supremacy sentiment?

[birdybirdywoofwoof]

it seems unlikely that many people who voted for Obama at the last election should have turned into racists in the meantime so perhaps there are other factors going on

I can see absolutely nothing that suggests great swathes of people who voted Obama last time voted for Trump this time.

[derxa]

The Labour party has done nothing to improve their homes, their schools, their chances of work, their sense of community, their self-worth, their sense of identity. Quite the reverse
On the other hand Labour party politicians do everything to improve their own homes, their children's schools, their chances of work.. Apart from Jeremy Corbyn it seems which is why people like him.

[Godstopper]

I do wonder if being in academia surrounded by very left-wing people and now being middle-class has isolated me somewhat from some very real social issues, and that there may be a lack of understanding. But this is a charge that can be leveled at anyone who doesn't have much personal exposure to many different groups of people.

I don't think that Trump voters are necessarily the same things that he is. That would be a pretty big logical fallacy. There are no generalizations to be made, in the same way it should not be assumed that the Left are failing to understand the motivations of others.

At the moment, I think vilifying some Trump voters is understandable, though certainly not commendable. Some people feel, and not entirely irrationally, that their lives are about to drastically change. Fear and lashing out right now is quite normal.

I certainly don't think some of the more frightening pronouncements will come to pass (build a wall, deport Muslims, removal of LGBT rights), but that doesn't stop me from being deeply disappointed by attitudes which suggest the U.S is going socially backwards.

[Justanotherlurker]

I can see absolutely nothing that suggests great swathes of people who voted Obama last time voted for Trump this time.

I think we need to wait until Dec 7th? I think before we can draw proper conclusions

baselinescenario.com/2016/11/10/narratives/

[RandyMagnum2]

I'm a bit puzzled by this, because although I'm not a fan of Blair, the one thing he did do was to pour money into schools, the NHS and public services generally. And you definitely saw the impact of that in terms of things like new school buildings, improved results, shorter NHS waiting times etc.

Pour money into deferred payment PFI schemes so the schools and hospitals built, we're still paying extortinate ammounts for, and having to cut back now to service the £222 billion of debt we're left with; you mean?

[NotDavidTennant]

Donald Trump's share of the popular vote looks like it will be fairly close to Mitt Romney's share in 2012, so there' s no evidence there was a vast swing of Obama voters to Trump.

[derxa]

People are fed up at being lectured by people who are hypocrites. In the olden days of course we didn't have so much press intrusion and social media. Harold Wilson sent his children to public school and nobody knew.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Wilson_(mathematician). He also didn't seem to do this awful virtue signalling thing which just gets on peoples' goat.

[derxa]

Donald Trump's share of the popular vote looks like it will be fairly close to Mitt Romney's share in 2012, so there' s no evidence there was a vast swing of Obama voters to Trump. The Obama voters didn't like Hillary and stayed at home.