To seriously wonder what it will take for the Left to realise hurling insults at their core voters won't win votes?

[basketoffreshveg]

guardian link

Now, I realise the above is about Trump, but if I didn't have to get ready for work I am sure I could find easily enough any number of articles from the last twelve months stating that core Labour voters are too stupid to know what is good for them, wrong, misguided, naive, foolish and poor judges of political and economical climates.

I keep thinking that at any key moment the light will go on and the penny will drop and the left will realise and identify this is the very problem and why they aren't being elected.

They aren't losing because of stupid voters but largely because these voters dislike being called stupid. I am not necessarily advocating a U turn insofar as policies go but in the way they are presented to the electorate.

Yet after every crushing blow I see articles like the one above and I have to reach the conclusion that there is a serious disconnect here as if I can identify the source of the problem and Labour/left seemingly cannot, and I am no genius, I truly can't see them ever getting back in.

[Inkanta]

'And how did do-gooder become an insult? If people want to do good (I would regard resisting racism as doing good) then that's, er, good, isn't it?'

Do-gooding is not necessarily about being good or being a saint although do-gooders might like to see themselves that way. It can be very much about maintaining an image of goodness and selflessness when deep down motives are pretentious.

The general public see through this.

[birdybirdywoofwoof]

You are arguing that Hilary is AS racist as Trump on the basis of an email - that she did not send or receive. You know that Trump was behind the Birther movement that hounded Obama in his first years of the Presidency, you know that Trump has repeatedly slighted ethnic minorities, in interviews and at rallies, you know that ethnic minorities did not vote Trump, you know that the KKK love Trump, you know that he has appointed a white supremacist as his chief strategist.

You know all this and still you persist?

I find that incredible. Really. If that is the level of your analysis, then I would suggest that you can't be relied on to say anything credible.

[PausingFlatly]

No, you are deflecting and trying to blame the treatment of disabled people wrt to ESA and PIP on some French guy. You did it very directly on this thread.

You know what, anyone can go back to MN threads from a few years ago and see all the posts from certain MNers saying it's great disabled people are being put through this, about time too, and they don't want to be paying tax to support these scroungers who must obviously be the majority of people on ESA. After all, everyone knows that, right?

That would be about the time the Mail was blaming the welfare state for the existence of that murdering abusive bastard Mick Philpott. All that's wrong with Britain, scroungers again, etc. Dismantle the welfare state.

And now the "kernel" of what "wrong with Britain" is a French guy.

[PausingFlatly]

Thing is, I would love to the country to have a decent discussion about population, the shape of the economy (who benefits), and how the UK should be positioning itself in the modern world. All based on proper statistics and realism in all regards.

But it seems impossible to have one, on MN or anywhere, without someone coming along and starting talking about hostiles pissing in your flower beds.

This fucks me off.

[Inkanta]

'Pausing seems to be obsessed with colour (again), and cannot see the wood for the trees. I am concerned about taxpayers money being misused which impacts provision of services for everyone.'

Yes, I have noticed this trend to consider colour first and foremost, and who's paying for families from other countries as some secondary inconsequential problem. Someone will pay and we should try to be more generous of spirit! Well no, the public have had enough of considering everyone else's needs. That's what Brexit and Trump is about. Enough is enough.

[birdybirdywoofwoof]

We all know there are problems of globalization, we all know that there have been winners and losers.

What are the solutions? I don't see this as a left or right issue anymore.

For some people, it was following millionaire/elites Farage, Gove and Johnson calls for change and for promises that leaving the EU without any semblance of a plan will make lives better.
Many of us are cynical about how that's going to work. (it's not)

For some people, it was following the millionaire Trumps promises that he's going to make massive change. Although he has appointed a Republican elite, a white supremacist, and four members of his own family as transition team - and is back-pedaling massively on half his promises - lets see how that works out for them too.

[PausingFlatly]

Also, going back to lurker' post about disability cuts way above:

^So rolls into labours territory then? Is this the "elite" that people are voting against, so which side is good and which side is bad?

If this is the "elite", it's a pretty big one, given the Tories subsequently won a general election on the promise of further and deeper cuts.

It's an "elite" which includes a couple of my taxi drivers and the woman behind the counter at my Post Office, and the bloke in my bank who were more than happy to support the disability cuts because "scroungers - oh but I don't mean people like you." And I've had to explain they DID mean people like me, as I was being affected.

They'd been bombarded with a nice simple story that people on the sick were workshy scroungers, hurting the living standards of nice hardworking people like them. And they could often connect that to "personal experience" of a neighbour's cat's hairdresser's niece who they'd heard got a free car.

So no, "the people" didn't vote against "the elite". They voted against the vulnerable. Not everyone who voted, by a very long shot, but more than enough.

[PausingFlatly]

Pausing seems to be obsessed with colour (again)

Eh? Would you care to justify that claim?

Or are you just chucking it in in the hope it'll become true if you say it?

[Showmeagain]

Jez. Two of richest nations IN THE WORLD have shifted to the right and displayed the worst parts of themselves. We should be ashamed of ourselves and our selfishness ot justifying why we should be able to keep more for ourselves and working out how to atrack the weakest in our own societies and the world even more

Haven't heard one solution on this thead just bleating about why the left is bad why it's so tough for us. Context people. It's not tough unless you are amongst the weakest. My view of left wing politics is that we protect all. The RW movements are about protecting themselves.

[Showmeagain]

Just in case you think I have no solutions here's one. The TUC should kick itself up its bum and connect with the workers. Become relevant to zero hours contractor. We should discourage materialism and search for a better model for our children (but that would deflate growth you say) I know we should start making things again invest more into our R and D. Build our industries. Look at how as a nation we can become closer to partial self sufficiency.

[Inkanta]

'I made a bet with myself that the French guy Southall was referencing was NOT some white Pierre Le Blanc from Amiens, but a black or Algerian Frenchman.'

PausingFlatly - I tell you I'm fascinated with this urge in some of you to search for reasons to shout racist and use as a stick to beat with!

No one on here is a racist. Try and debate without falling back on this default button. That's the only way forward because folk don't buy it anymore. It doesn't work. The stick doesn't work!

[PausingFlatly]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to derail the thread onto just talking about disability cuts.

It came up as a classic example where suddenly everything is about immigration and recent history is being rewritten to fit.

I agree wholeheartedly that we have to look at whole pictures and be realistic about what actually happens. And not ignore things because they don't fit our favourite model.

That's WHY I don't think rewriting history, or chucking everything at the scapegoat du jour, is a good idea.

[Showmeagain]

Pausing please don't bite. They seem to be more interested in unconstructive discourse than solutions.

[Showmeagain]

If a bridge has collapsed and I need to get to the other side talking about why it collapsed is useful. But without discusding and working out how to rebuild it you will never cross

[PausingFlatly]

Hardly an obsession, then, Inkanta. Or "again".

And I haven't called anyone racist.

But I was able to correctly predict that, out of a population of about 65 million people, the Frenchman chosen by the Daily Mail would be from a minority ethnic group, or white but Muslim.

Not because I think of this all the time, but because looking at their coverage, they seem to.

[PausingFlatly]

You're right, Showme.

And I hope that really the intent of this thread was to be positive and constructive, which often involves being critical in the first instance not just ego-soothing.

[Inkanta]

'It is even possible to hold views from both the right and left.'

Yes, well I think politics is pretty mainstream these days. I don't really like these Right and Left definitions to be honest. They cause divisions that don't need to be there. It's not a case that the Left care and the Right don't care and only want to look after themselves. I used to vote for Labour but now I would vote for TM - I think she's doing a good job. Corbyn just gets worse in my opinion and he's going nowhere.

[MsFloraPoste]

showme I like your constructive approach. Despairing of society will get us nowhere.

Inkanta I prefer to think that if someone appears to be trying to do good they probably are, unless there's a very good reason to think otherwise. Cynicism won't get us anywhere either.

[PausingFlatly]

I don't really like these Right and Left definitions to be honest. They cause divisions that don't need to be there.

Agree with you strongly, Inkanta.

[Southallgirl]

Pausing said I made a bet with myself that the French guy Southall was referencing was NOT some white Pierre Le Blanc from Amiens, but a black or Algerian Frenchman

What's your point? I posted that link because it was the most recent one I had seen about a large family who had the luxury to move to England and continue living on benefits without working. If he had been a white chap from Paris also with 10 kids and no work, I would have posted that.

Colour is irrelevant, except to you. I am Asian by the way, can think critically and can see that it is wrong to force a country to fully support people who have contributed Nil to the (finite) pot of money.

They seem to be more interested in unconstructive discourse than solutions

Before a problem can be tackled and solved, it has to be identified. You along with Pausing continue to avoid putting your finger on at least one problem that is causing smaller and smaller allocation of monies to all services.

[Southallgirl]

No one on here is a racist
I agree, Inkanta but if there is such a thing as reverse racism I think some posters on here suffer from it. More like cognitive dissonance. It must take all your time keeping out the realities of the world, ladies.

[Southallgirl]

We should be ashamed of ourselves and our selfishness ot justifying why we should be able to keep more for ourselves and working out how to atrack the weakest in our own societies and the world even more

This would be very laudable, except UK gives billions to various countries EVERY YEAR. How would you feel if, say, 5 yrs worth of PAYE contributions you had made would mandatorily be taken off your record and given to someone else who had contributed very little, thus affecting your pension. And another 5 yrs from another person, and another .....

At the moment you fail to see how anything is taken from you, or denied to you, but it is. You may willingly give up 5 yrs of PAYE payments, but the next person may well not.

[libprog]

Disagree. People who are offended by this would have voted trump anyway. It's the fact that actually nothing was done to gain voters. Trump won the rust belt because he campaigned hard there. Democrats thiught they'd win anyway and people wouldn't vote for trump.

[Showmeagain]

Errmm we are one of the richest counerves on the world. We have santition food energy. Nope I don't mind my money going to those who deserve it. I really don't. Ask me if I like it going on bombs and wars instead

[WrongTrouser]

For anyone still unconvinced that some on the left have been throwing insults at their core voters, here is a quote from Gisela Stuart's contribution to the Fabian Society report, Facing the Unknown: Building a progressive response to Brexit.

Second we failed to take a dispassionate look at the immigration figures and what it meant for communities..... (various problems - planning, wage reduction etc - my insert)....This caused huge problems for communities, but too many on the left refused to acknowledge this. We told our voters they were racist or ignorant or both

Gisela Stuart, Labour MP can see it and admits it needs addressing.

Actually I found reading this report quite encouraging on this issue.

www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/FABJ4808_Europe_Report_130916_WEB_2.pdf