DP and DM can't stand each other - WWYD?

[crocodarl]

Apologies for the length of this, but I want to avoid drip feeding if possible...

I have a great relationship with my DP and also with my DM, but, as with many inlaws, they really don't get on with each other. In fact, they fell out properly when DS1 was about 10 months old and I found it very difficult as I got completely stuck in the middle trying to mediate between them... after that they didn't see each other for about 2 years - I went once or twice a year for a long visit to DM with the kids but DP stayed at home.

Over the last couple of years things have improved and DM has been over to stay with us several times and although they still aren't keen they seemed to manage to tolerate each other for the sake of me and the kids. However, now it seems to be all boiling back up again... DM is visiting as DS3 has just been born and pretty much every day there is some kind of unpleasantness.

The problem, I think, is partly cultural and partly just personality clash. They are both people who are very set in their ways and automatically think anyone else's way of doing something is wrong if its different from theirs - but neither of them thinks they are like that! Also, DP is very direct if he is annoyed about something (in a way DM finds very upsetting and rude) and DM is completely insensitive about stuff that is clearly likely to set him off (then gets very upset when it does). She thinks he is aggressive and controlling. He thinks she is rude and over-reacting.

Lately the issue has been cleanliness: DP and his family are borderline obssessive about domestic hygiene. DM has a far more relaxed approach. Obviously I was raised by DM and so am not panicking about dirt, but on the other hand I quite like things clean, especially as we have a new baby at the moment I think it's quite normal and sensible to be a bit careful about handwashing/keeping things clean around the house. DM takes exception when DP asks her to wash her hands when she comes into our house (although there's no way she'd do it if he didn't) also she really doesn't get how disgusting it is for him that she has a day old used cloth hanky in her pocket. Also at dinner this evening she passed a drumstick she's already eaten part of to the 2 year old to finish... and she'd think nothing of using a tissue she'd already used herself on the 2 year old or the 4 year old ... to be honest I'm totally with DP on all of this being wrong/revolting, although on the other hand I grew up with this kind of stuff seeming normal and knowing we are all healthy and all survived so also think it's fairly harmless really - just I wish she wouldn't! But on the other hand I know she means well and she's lovely in lots of other ways and I hate that this is making her feel so unhappy/uncomfortable around us - but i wish she'd just think a little bit!! And as for her relationship with DP, this is just 1 example - even if we got the hygiene issue sorted, he would find something else to be annoyed about.

I have tried talking to both of them and tried to give them tips to help them understand each other a bit better but it really hasn't helped ... and I'm starting to think the best plan is just to keep them away from each other... I just don't have the energy to try to fix this any more, I am so sick of being stuck in the middle ... I used to find it upsetting, now it's just sort of funny except for neither of them sees it that way.

I don't want to sacrifice my (or the kids') relationship with either of them, and I don't want to ban DM from visiting us (or for DP to have stay out of the house when she does) but I don't know if I can stand the atmosphere of of what's it's like when she's here.

So, thanks anyone who read all the way through this! And, from your own experience regarding inlaw relationships, should I just let them fight and stay out of it, or should I go back to only visiting DM at her place without DP? I think she'd be devastated though, if she thought she wasn't welcome at ours.... Any suggestions welcome.

I think your DH is hugely disrespectful to your mother.

I've never heard of anyone wishing hands when they come into a house as a principle. I wash my hands if they are dirty, but not when I come back in from work, or from picking up a pint of milk from the corner shop. I would be pretty hurt if someone treated me as so filthy they didn't want me in the house unless I washed my hands on entering.

Sharing food is not that gross. Personally I'm not a big fan but it is not out there as a top revolting habit.

I hate cloth hankies with a passion but I'd never comment on an older woman carrying one in her pocket.

I really think your DH has some learning to do in how to welcome a visitor to his home. He can't - and shouldn't even try - to control her to this extent. It sounds as if he doesn't want her to be close to you.

Honestly a lot of what you've said I would consider kind of gross from a stranger but with a blood relative, sharing food etc is normal in our house. I think it is frankly quite rude to ask someone to wash their hands upon entering the house, if it was before handling the baby or eating etc then fine but just entering the house? I would be mortified to be asked that. I'm with your dm here sorry

Seriously, Abisothegran, you think a half-eaten drumstick is a credible threat to a toddler's life?

Wow, thanks everyone! Wasn't expecting so many responses.

DP is originally from Bosnia (Yugoslavia, when he was born). His mother and older sister are EXTREMELY hygiene obsessed (but warm, kind people as well). He's actually fairly relaxed about it compared to them, but he was brought up to believe keeping yourself clean and smart was pretty much the most important thing... I've often told him that's nuts and fortunately we have quite an outdoor lifestyle and I refuse to dress the kids smartly. Plus I think there were lots of things he missed out on as a child (playing in sandpits, jumping in muddy puddles) because of his mother's attitude which I've often told him is a massive shame and he does accept that (I have seen him wince about muddy jackets/wellies but I just laugh at him). I actually have a great relationship with his mother although I totally disagree with how she raised him, she's a good person, just nuts in that department.

I'm from the UK but we live in another European country which is closer to his than mine, but fortunately an outdoor, sporty lifestyle is the norm for kids here.

Regarding his relationship with my mother, yeah hygiene is only part of it. I think they are psycologically too similar (both very sure their way is the only way and not able to recognise others) and culturally different (eg the hygiene issues) for it ever to be plain sailing...

And yes, he has definite dick tendencies, I am aware of this and have done the sums, but there's enough good qualities to compensate and we are a good team/strong family otherwise. Its just this with my mum, really. He IS difficult with other people too sometimes (and he's MUCH ruder to his own mother than he ever is to mine, thats pretty grim too really)....

... anyway, I just have to relax and keep them apart really, don't I?

That's up to you, OP, but I would be telling my DH to stop being so rude to my mum.

Yes,Trifleorbust,I do-if the adult in question is a carrier of staflococcus,meningitis or hepatitis for example.All carried in saliva.

Yup, me too.

I would not let anyone put distance between me and my mother or teach my children that their Granny was disgusting.

Abisothegran: I don't mean to sound rude here but that is quite simply ridiculous. People will catch serious illnesses from personal contact - kissing, cuddling, sneezing, coughing - and basic precautions (hand over mouth, use a tissue) are fine, but trying to create some sort of sterile environment by refusing to share food with anyone is way OTT for the risk factors involved. Children will catch stuff, it's the nature of children.

What happens when your DCs friends or later in life partners do not pass the hygiene test will they just need to be kept apart. His treatment of his own mother is awful as well.

Trifleorbust -You are welcome to asess risk for your own family-Perhaps a medical degree makes me less likely to take the risk for my own.

I know many many health care professionals, including some with medical degrees and none of them have problems with OCD and hygiene . So I conclude that there's no positive correlation let alone a causal relationship.

I think it's completely normal to ask people to wash their hands when coming into a house before holding a new baby. I'm with your DH on that, and especially the sharing of used tissues. She's not really following he government advice of catch it, kill it, bin it. Here DGC let me wipe my different germs directly onto your face for you. It's different if living together as all would likely be colonised with the same thing.

Yep just try and keep the peace the best you can. Her living with you and new baby was always going to bring out the worst in them both for a while!

Abisothegran: You are welcome to do any number of weird things, obviously. It doesn't make it any the less odd or OTT.

OP - did your DH always ask your mum to wash her hands when entering the house before the new baby was born, or is it a recent "new baby" measure?

Kr1stina-the causal relationship is with the definition of OCD as opposed to normal precautions which will differ depending on age-here we are talking about a newborn baby and a toddler.

starbears its a new baby thing. He IS obsessed with hygiene, but no he doesn't go that far normally. But the issue between him and my mother does run deeper than hgiene - this is just a good example of how it is..

Trifleorbust -and now you are indeed rude as well as ignorant!

As has been shown on here, the definition of normal varies massively. Given that we don't as a country have issues with epidemics of illness, it's probably fair to say that our 'normal' does the job quite sufficiently. Obviously if there are specific health concerns on either side that would require additional precautions, but this is (as far as we know) a healthy child and a healthy adult.

I'd need to check but I'm pretty sure the nadir in natural immunity is at 2-3months old providing the baby is not prem and a newborn baby is less vulnerable than an 8 weeker in an immunity sense. At birth baby has lots of passive immunity derived from the mother who's antibodies have transfused over in the last month or two of pregnancy. Of course vaccinations start at 2 months so that offsets the natural dip in immunity. I can't say I ever got anyone to wash their hands on entering the house with my 3 when either newborn or older but is he planning to continue you this with all house visitors for 3 months?

Op this has thrown up some really interesting issues as I have had to deal with these issues but all in different ways.

I asked people to wash hands with dd2 because she was born in winter and there was a nasty bought of noravirus going round, my own DF was more than happy to comply and agreed it was better to err on side of caution, where as my ultra clean in laws took it as a personal attack on them. I was only hot on the hand washing for all the family through winter to January when baby was a little older and stronger and have never bothers with it since to such a degree.

My ultra clean in laws have also taken issue with me and tissues in the past but then - happily share their own cutlery with the dc - even after nasty illness episodes. Which I think is more disgusting than anything as your literally main lining your bacteria into them.

I was going to come on to say your dm should without a doubt not be fighting your dh over right and wrong ways to raise the dc because they are his dc not hers. She can diplomatically offer opinions but I wouldnt bother in this situation.
However I disagree with cleanliness obsessions...and like you op - I grew up in a normal balanced household with regards to cleanliness and it can become an obsession, eg I think its bonkers your dh is aware of your dm tissues.

Or could you have some hand sanitiser around and say "I'm having a squirt of this myself Mum, can I just give you one too while I'm here?"

^^ grin]

Mum - I am just popping into my barrier suit, I have a spare one, if you fancy popping into one too?

You living in yet another country's will make things harder as he won't have had direct experience of how to relate to people the British way.

I agree that maybe the only answer Is to separate them like toddlers.

But please be mindful that you are not going to miss out on seeing your mum. If twice a year for a long ish stay is ok then fine. But if you feel that you need to see more, then go for it and be don't let THEIR issues stopping you and the dcs from seeing your mum.

NoMud It's not necessary, of course, but I think it's kind of common sense for newborns. I know bacteria is everywhere, but on the other hand, nobody wants their newborn to pick up a bug if it can be helped

I totally agree and Mud makes me wonder why hospitals are loading up with alcohol gel everywhere if its so pointless at preventing the spread of nasty bacteria.

"He IS difficult with other people too sometimes (and he's MUCH ruder to his own mother than he ever is to mine, thats pretty grim too really).... "

In my sad experience, men who are rude to their mothers and then become rude to their MILs, eventually end up being rude to their wives. So you may want to keep an eye on that.