To think it's taking the piss for a bloke on remand accused of double rape to decide he is a woman?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sex-gender-change-pomont-9141800.amp?client=ms-android-google

18

Have there been any cases at all of a trans-man being sent to a male prison?

The reason I'd ask for that research is that I don't believe the trans lobby could provide it. But surely these policy decisions should be evidence-based?

Did anyone else receive a threat message regarding this thread, or should I feel honoured?

"PM Inbox Male accused of rape
From: Jammiedodgers
To: ItsAllGoingToBeFine
Re: Male accused of rape
23 minutes ago
Just a word of warning. You are assuming the person accused of rape is guilty before they've had their trial. How are you going to feel when the DM pick this thread up to run alongside their inflammatory articles. I'd be embarrassed personally."

Forgive me if thjs has been answered, but what does it mean to be "tried as a woman"? I'm from a country where they don't make distinctions like that so I don't totally get it. Is it like being tried as an adult, where there are stronger penalties? Are the elements of the crime or the jury instructions different in some way? Would they actually not tell the jury that the defendant was identifying as a man at the time of the rape?

ToShelandBlack

I asked the question originally, as I thought that in cases where the crime is specific to a certain sex, any gender change, however official, would not be recognised.

Did anyone else receive a threat message regarding this thread, or should I feel honoured? hmm

Fucking hell! Have you reported it?

Don't be a twatty coward, Jammiedodgers. Put your money where your mouth is instead of trying to cow women into silence behind the scenes.

There have also been a number of posts on this thread pointing out that the subject of the thread is on remand & has not been convicted, so Jammie's point is not relevant for anyone who has bothered to read the thread or the linked article. However, given the lamentable rate at which rape cases even make it to trial and the fact there are two separate charges, it seems likely the Police & CPS (or Scottish equivalent) have a decent case against this individual.

This man is taking the piss out of women. He's already (allegedly) violated the boundaries of 2 women. He knows the law is on his side to allow him to violate many more, starting with the female officers who now have to perform body searches on him. A sick little man.

The DM has reported several cases lately questioning the trans ideology. They have beefed it up this morning with a critique on Mermaids followed by another case of a 14 year old trans.

I should imagine they are starting something of a campaign.

ToShelAndBack

It means he could ask to be sent to a female prison. They will be told he was a man at the time of the offence and as he's had no surgery or hormones, I am assuming it will be fairly evident anyway.

This is just the start of the madness

elsa

People on the spartacus thread were saying they wouldn't call any trans women she, or trans men he

There may have been some posts saying that but the vast majority were not saying that

I do agree with the rest of what you said elsa

i have every sympathy for someone who honestly believes they are in the wrong body (although i do not believe it myself) and i do agree that cases like this are damaging trans people as well as women

Elsa
You have my sympathy and from everything I you have posted, you are a very supportive and kind relative.

The pronoun thing is difficult and I would certainly be polite face to face. But I do think being forced to use pronouns that are not actually accurate is a violation of free speech. You cannot compel people to use certain words.

Agree with all the Spartaci.

You cannot compel people to use certain words

And I wouldn't want to, although I would avoid those being deliberately offensive.

I think of all the issues there are with the new wave of transgender people that this one possibly isn't a battle worth having tbh.

Knowing that some (certainly not all) wouldn't call my relative the pronoun of choice, and having seen the damage that has done in the past makes it hard for people like me to stand and be counted amongst those who's views I agree with for the most part though.

Surely a middle ground can be achieved somewhere.

I've been on the Daily Fail site reading the comments and it's pretty cheering. Hardly anyone supports Mermaids and plenty of posters either refer to their own tomboy childhood or to their gender nonconforming kids dressed up as firemen with fairy wings.

They repeat a lot of the arguments we see here, interestingly. The most upvoted comments are saying kids should be kids and left alone by genderists.

The backlash is here.

I don't see how allegedly violently raping women with your penis fits in with someone wanting to be a woman. This person is not living or behaving as a generic stereotypical woman. They are behaving like a sociopath and sexual predator though.

Being locked in with someone who can do these things to people like you on their say so seems utterly terrifying and inhumane.

The Transgender Equality Enquiry received this written evidence from the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists:

"It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this."

Why is no one listening to them?

I used to think the pronoun business was just about being polite and I would still use she/her about a transwoman if she were present. However I probably wouldn't if the transwoman wasn't around to hear.

But my views have changed. It's about reality. I don't believe people can change sex. I don't believe transwomen are female and I think the insistence that people use female pronouns for males is dishonest and, equally importantly, it assumes agreement with an ideology I hotly dispute. In discussion I will, whenever possible, avoid using pronouns at all. But I'm not prepared to use she/her about a man on remand for rape. He may not be guilty but we know he's been having PIV sex with at least two women and this, for me, totally disqualifies him from being any sort of woman. I'm not saying "her penis." That way madness lies.

Italy opened a prison for transgender criminals in 2010. Surely the only sane way forward is to keep them separate from either population as they are potentially either extremely vulnerable or pose a potential threat.

Agree prawn. I don't think this person is representative of trans people in general any more than I think all men or all human beings are murderers. However that isn't the point. I rely on the law to give protection from those people who are dangerous. When that doesn't happen, it is not important to be polite, it is important to communicate clearly and forcefully.

I feel am awful for his poor victim. This must be horrible for her.

I'd also like to stress that it will be a cold day in hell before I use "her penis".