To think it's taking the piss for a bloke on remand accused of double rape to decide he is a woman?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sex-gender-change-pomont-9141800.amp?client=ms-android-google

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I realise that Elsa. But something has to give. I don't see why it should always be women. Its transactivists who are polarising the debate, in the main, so it's transactivists people ought to be challenging. But only a subsection of feminists actually do.

Because the nature of prisons is that they already contain quite a lot of violent people with and occasionally without penises housed alongside vulnerable individuals. And it's the job of the prison service to make sure that everyone is safe

So why bother having women's prisons if all prisons are all equally full of violent people?

Presumably because it's easier to keep women safe and not pregnant if they are not with men who are physically stronger and have penises.

There were people on there saying that they wouldn't use preferred pronouns, they did say they might use it to someone's face to save offending them, but they wouldn't do it on MN.

Isn't that their right? They don't believe a man is or can become a woman. If they are not doing it to their face then it's out of courtesy. I don't really think you can expect any more than that.

Because they are hoist with their own petard. They can't say this guy isn't trans, when they are pushing for complete self-identification.

Exactly. The transwacktivist demands are bonkers.

Since they have no re-defined from transsexual to transgender, it is entirely justified to remind them that prisons, toilets, et cetera are sex-segregated, and not gender-segregated.

No male has the right to use the women's toilets or demand of women that we use female pronouns for him.

Some women might choose to use whatever pronouns someone wants, because they're nice people, and that's their decision to make.
But once you force someone into a game of make-believe, that's not a game anymore, that's brainwashing.

Why should they though, Elsa? It's one thing to use them when addressing the person, to be polite and to avoid causing offence, but it is in fact using language incorrectly. It involves lying, in fact. We can't be forced to pretend something is true when we know it isn't.

Something does have to give venus you're right.

I said on another thread recently, my relative has been identifying as trans for years, using accessible changing rooms and toilets, they are now being strongly encouraged to use the changing rooms and toilets of the gender they identify with which is making things very uncomfortable for us all.

It isn't just 'cis' (sorry) people who don't want this.

I would challenge trans activists if there were people with some middle ground challenging them too, the only people who seem to take them on are those with views that I can't agree with either. It's difficult to get a balanced debate.

I'm not saying people should have to. I'm just saying views like that make it hard for people like me to agree with you, despite agreeing with a lot of what's said.

There seems to be no middle ground.

Elsa it's not a view. It's a fact.

I wish more moderate trans people and their families would speak up Elsa. I think the transactivist position is so extreme that it polarises discussion to an enormous degree which is hugely unhelpful.

Pre-2004 and GRC days, there was no issue. The self-identification line is what is causing problems but unless the wider trans community speak up against it, transactivists are always going to be the voice of trans people.

I know what you're saying, Elsa, but the reason only committed radical feminists will challenge transactivists is because many transactivists are bullies and abusive and they threaten and doxx people.

It's awful about your relative. I hope people do start to stand up against the bullies. But to be honest, trans people need to do it too.

To be honest, the fact that trans people are silent makes it look like they are happy for women's rights to be fucked over in the name of trans rights.

Elsa who is telling your relative to use men's bathrooms? High profile trans activists or just the regular trans friends they chat to daily online? Sorry, I'm afraid your assertion that most trans people wamt to quietly love their lives isn't true. Certainly some do, but the nature of the trans community is about joining with a marginalised group and fighting against the mainstream. Have a glance at any online community or page and you'll see dozens and dozens and dozens of posts from people shouting TERF. These views aren't marginal, they are mainstream.

Poldark, I can imagine it might be employers, service providers etc that want Elsa's relative to use opposite sex facilities. It's an easy solution for them.

That's exactly it venus.

Trans activists and radical feminists battling it out, there doesn't seem to be room for compromise, you have to align with one view or the other or stay out of it.

Most people are choosing to stay out of it.

TA are awful people, and I don't believe most of them are genuinely trans at all, they set themselves up as spokespeople for an issue and get a bit of power and just roll with it, I don't think it matters what issue it is, it just happens to be transgender issues at the moment, if they lose their status from that they will be off joining fathers for justice or something next week.

I think the transactivist position is so extreme that it polarises discussion to an enormous degree which is hugely unhelpful.

^ I agree with this 100%

Poldark it's actually the school my relative attends telling them to use changing rooms and toilets. For years they have been using accessible facilities with no problems.

Totally agree Elsa. Not sure what the solution is. If someone gets validation from being able to use a female service or facilities, then my exerting my rights as a woman to have them excluded denies them that validation. I do realise this. But I think a line should be drawn and biological women should have their privacy and dignity respected. It's not just about safety.

What a sad little flower this person is. Perhaps in all kindness the best thing would be to fast track his full transition and arrange for an accelerated removal of his balls and penis. Like next week.

Then as soon as little flower recovers the rape charge can go ahead.

Seriously there needs to be some urgent legislation introduced ensuring that if you commit a sex crime then the gender you are at the time is the gender you are charged as, and tried as. There should also be regulation that if a biological male demands to be sent to a biologically women's prison then he must immediately agree to supervised hormone treatment with a view to surgical intervention .

How do we know he isn't genuinely trans? Those posters who are critical of him because he's making it harder for those who are "genuine" - what is your test?

When allowing men into women's spaces how do I know which ones are genuinely trans, which are cross dressing fetishists getting off on being in my space, which are creepy voyeurs or exhibitionists and which are the rapists?

Because I can't tell by looking but you obviously can and I think that would be an enormously helpful filter

That must be difficult- but schools/employers are trying to follow prevailing wisdom on these issues and avoid lawsuits for discrimination. It's not surprising they are confused about how to respond.

Yes, I think this is the issue, Hermione. He's no less trans than a lot of people who identify as trans.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
No true Scotsman fallacy. Why wouldn't this teenage rapist be genuine trans? Because he's a rapist?

It's why there should be a burden of proof (which was the purpose of the previous conditions). Now it's shifted from 'how do I know you are trans?' To 'how do you know I'm not trans?'

It's utterly wrong that female prison officers are forced to carry out intimate searches on men. Or if a transwoman became a prison officer they would be able to carry out intimate searches on women prisoners against their wishes. It's all so wrong. I would like a bit of common sense employed in policy making, rather than all this tumblr influenced wankery.

It really has to be "how do I know you are trans", not the other way round.