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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it's taking the piss for a bloke on remand accused of double rape to decide he is a woman?

243 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/10/2016 12:43

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sex-gender-change-pomont-9141800.amp?client=ms-android-google

18

OP posts:
ZippyNeedsFeeding · 28/10/2016 14:29

I rarely comment on trans threads because I do worry a bit about accidentally putting my massive feet in my mouth, but here goes- please forgive my clumsiness!

Broadly speaking, I have great sympathy for trans women. Most of them seem to have had real struggles before they reach a point where they feel comfortable in themselves- if they ever do (I read somewhere that the suicide rate doesn't go down post-transition, for example). I don't personally feel threatened by obvious transwomen using female toilets or changing rooms (although I wouldn't belittle the fears of people who do). It isn't even about having a penis or not for me- I've heard of cases where transwomen who have never had that operation were put in mens prisons and I was horrified because they were effectively being made into prey.

To me, it's a safety issue. If you strip off the nonsense about who is or isn't discriminating against who else, the legal system has a duty of care to each prisoner. They haven't been convicted yet, so nobody can absolutely say they are a rapist, but a simple risk assessment would surely conclude that hey belong to a high risk group (I'm not a statistician but I'd bet that accused rapists as a group have more actual rapists per capita than the general population). Putting an accused rapist in with the general population o its own might put them in harm's way, so they might well need to be segregated. Putting that person in with women who are also awaiting trial (high stress situation not likely to lead to considered, thoughtful actions) is likely to lead to some form of violence- either the women might object violently an attack the accused rapist en masse, or the women might be assaulted by the accused rapist. The "It's all fine, they all discovered a mutual love of crochet and keep in touch" option seems vanishingly unlikely. Prisons need to keep order, and in this case that would seem to mean segregation.

ZippyNeedsFeeding · 28/10/2016 14:32

Oh gawd, some terrible phrasing there. I typed;
in with the general population o its own might put them in harm's way
when what I meant was "On it's own, putting them in with the general population might put them in harms way". Wasn't calling anyone "it"!

Somerville · 28/10/2016 14:36

Well done to the Daily Record for continuing to call Aaron Herschell he.

I hope the prison officers' trade union supports them fully. I've been wondering what will happen in this kind of situation.

I also hope that the women Herschell is accused of raping are getting plenty of support. All this doesn't make their recovery any easier. Sad

myownprivateidaho · 28/10/2016 14:37

I don’t think there’s any right answer. If the conditions in women’s prisons are so poor that safeguarding is impossible to be achieved, then yes, perhaps the answer is for the prisoner to live as a woman on a vulnerable prisoners’ wing of a male prison. Or perhaps on a separate wing of a women’s prison. It definitely raises a tricky issue, particularly when the transperson is also a sex offender.

However, what I don’t like about this thread, as with so many other threads on MN about trans issues, is the prejudiced tone. Posters make the leap from a single accused identifying as a woman to saying that somehow trans-people, merely by existing, are doing violence to women. I think that some posters really need to think about what they’re writing. You may not like their choices, but trans-people are also PEOPLE. The fact of their existence is not doing anyone any harm. It is possible to advocate for women’s rights and trans rights, even though sometimes those rights come into conflict. When they come into conflict you have to think about how to resolve that conflict, not pick one group to vilify. I actually agree that most often that conflict will be resolved by the trans people having to compromise, just by dint of there being fewer of them. But that doesn’t mean that I think they have no rights or that their rights are less important. It’s just a fact of life and law that sometimes people’s rights come into conflict and you have to make a judgment call about that, while still attempting to respect those rights as far as possible.

I find the bigoted hate speech on these threads so depressing. I wish some of you could actually meet some trans people and start seeing them as people. Would you wish corrective violence issued by fellow prisoners on a cis-gender prisoner, male or female? Would you make casual jokes about forcing surgery on cis-gender people? Would you say that gay people are just faking it because you personally haven't experienced that feeling? Start again. Start from the point that these are fellow human beings, with lives and feelings just like yours. Activate some basic empathy. Then think about the problem again. No one is denying that trans issues raise social problems, simply by virtue of us having a society that is so heavily gendered. But it's possible to think about and solve those problems without this "burn the witch" attitude.

FlyingElbows · 28/10/2016 14:41

It is truly terrifying that all he's had to do is say it and he can manipulate the system to essentially abuse the female staff. That is outrageous. The though that he could have access to very vulnerable young women is chilling (although I'm sure the staff would be all over him). If he wants women then open the doors to Cornton Vale and see how long they'd tolerate little Mr Lady Rapist for! Similarly I don't fancy his chances much in the Bar L. Seems to be a bit cushy in Polmont but maybe it's exactly what we need to hammer the point home.

venusinscorpio · 28/10/2016 14:44

That casual joke about forcing surgery was made by a pro-trans poster, myown.

IminaPickle · 28/10/2016 14:44

Your thinking is very muddled myownprivateidaho
Why do you think it's because conditions in prison that women would be at risk, when the issue is that they'd be at risk because a violent person with a penis Confused
Do you not think this man is claiming mischievously?

Yakitori · 28/10/2016 14:44

There is a difference between being prejudiced and not being a fucking idiot who is taken in by someone accused of rape saying anything to get off or some kind of preferential treatment should they be convicted.

It makes me feel sick for the victims and for people who are genuinely trans.

venusinscorpio · 28/10/2016 14:45

And I imagine she made it because she didn't think this person is truly trans, so she did joke about forcing surgery on a non trans person.

Yakitori · 28/10/2016 14:46

Quite apart from anything, why do the rights of one person with a penis trump those of 500 vulnerable women s/he will be locked up with?

IminaPickle · 28/10/2016 14:47

Oh my ^^ that's incomprehensible!Blush
If someone violent with a penis is housed with women why would you conclude any risks to the woman are as a result of the conditions where they're housed? Confused

SpaceUnicorn · 28/10/2016 14:50

Posters make the leap from a single accused identifying as a woman to saying that somehow trans-people, merely by existing, are doing violence to women

Could you quote a post on this thread that does what you're claiming? I've obviously missed them. All I can recall are comments along the lines of how persons looking to exploit legal loopholes around self-identification are doing a huge disservice to trans individuals.

TalkingintheDark · 28/10/2016 14:51

Yet another example of women being thrown under the bus in the pursuit of trans rights.

Fucking marvellous.

TotallyOuting · 28/10/2016 14:52

And to the poster who said she's never heard of a "male vagina", this is likely because you get your info on transsexual issues on hysterical mn threads. One of my closest friends is a trans man, very strange you think they don't exist.

I said I had never heard of 'male vagina', not that they didn't exist, or that trans men didn't exist.

I'm also not sure what fancy logical twists and turns your brain is pulling to make you suggest that an information source would be the reason someone hadn't heard of something. Unless it had the power to selectively destroy synapses through the computer screen. There are a few information sources on the web I suspect might be capable of that, but Mumsnet is not among them.

Neither 'female penises' nor 'male vaginas' do exist, incidentally.

myownprivateidaho · 28/10/2016 14:52

That casual joke about forcing surgery was made by a pro-trans poster

I don't care who said it Confused. It's clearly an unacceptable joke.

Why do you think it's because conditions in prison that women would be at risk, when the issue is that they'd be at risk because a violent person with a penis

Because the nature of prisons is that they already contain quite a lot of violent people with and occasionally without penises housed alongside vulnerable individuals. And it's the job of the prison service to make sure that everyone is safe. It may well be that budget issues make this impossible in the case of a ftm sex offender in a women's prison. But the idea that this somehow raises a uniquely difficult problem is ridiculous. Managing prisoner safety is a daily problem in the prison system.

Yakitori · 28/10/2016 14:53

Women's prisons don't often contain a lot of rapists. Nor as many convicted of violent offences as men's.

ExitPursuedBySpartacus · 28/10/2016 14:55

myownprivateidaho It is a convicted sex offender most people are referring to in the first instance, who just happens to be trans (or claims to be).

My sympathy levels are very low.

Yakitori · 28/10/2016 14:55

Women's prisons do contain a lot of people who have been raped though.

venusinscorpio · 28/10/2016 14:55

Then don't use it to bang on about how many terrible transphobic people there are on mumsnet. She clearly doesn't think this person is trans. But she is pro trans, from every post I've ever seen of hers on the subject.

2kids2dogsnosense · 28/10/2016 14:56

I hope he will be chemically castrated if they decide to send him to a woman's prison. Trans-peopleusually have to wait months, if not years, for their surgery, and have to live as a person of the opposite sex during that time to ensure that they are really sincere/correct in their wishes. I see no reason why he should be bumped up the queue, and nor should Sheba allowed to be a risk to other individuals.

I have read of other cases where the individual has been jailed in the prison of their sex at birth. For some M to F transgenders this has proved fatal (suicide brought about by the despair of being repeatedly raped and abused). Doesn't sound like it would for this guy, though.

myownprivateidaho · 28/10/2016 14:58

Pretty much every post on this thread is transphobic imo. It actually makes me tearful. I don't know. I guess this was what gay rights discussions were like 20-30 years ago. Hopefully in 20-30 years time things will have moved on. Anyway, I'm logging off this thread as I'm finding the hate overwhelming.

venusinscorpio · 28/10/2016 15:00

Oh what a surprise, you're logging off. It makes me upset the little fuck that is given for women's rights. But at least I argue my points.

TotallyOuting · 28/10/2016 15:00

Pretty much every post on this thread is transphobic imo. It actually makes me tearful. I don't know. I guess this was what gay rights discussions were like 20-30 years ago. Hopefully in 20-30 years time things will have moved on. Anyway, I'm logging off this thread as I'm finding the hate overwhelming.

Unless you're trans and particularly sensitive to anything and everything on this topic, please skip to this kind of shit earlier on in future so we can stop taking you seriously and save everyone a lot of time.

Yakitori · 28/10/2016 15:01

Plus the employee rights of the prison officers must be considered here.

SpaceUnicorn · 28/10/2016 15:01

Pretty much every post on this thread is transphobic imo

Rubbish. Total and utter rubbish.

You're 'logging off' because you've backed yourself into a corner with allegations of 'hate' that you cannot substantiate.

Hmm
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