To continue to wonder who is happy with where Brexit is heading

[Bearbehind]

Whilst I'm sure Leavers will undoubtedly think AIBU the last thread filled up so here's another 1000 opportunities to discuss what you think about where Brexit is heading.

The South China journo makes a very good point about the citizen test , has anyone on here actually seen it ? I doubt any UK born national of any age would ace it , leaver or remainer , regardless of educational background . If you know anyone currently taking it , get them signed up to your pub quiz team asap

Dropping in at the Brexit Arms for a swift half.

3 glorious things.

Business won't need to be tied to unnecessary EU rules and regs unless they do business with the EU. (Currently all businesses do)

We won't need to pay more in than we get out of the EU.

Our security would be increased as we would have control of our borders.

We would be able to support research, deprived communities etc in our own country

We would allow workers to come to areas in a controlled way, so that schools and hospitals aren't overwhelmed.

The workers who come here would be paid minimum/living wage and be housed in good conditions with access to schools and health facilities.

We would have control of our own laws again

In theory * the additional money would support services in this country.
We would be free to negotiate favourable trade deals with other countries

*everything, good and bad, is uncertain at the moment!

Plenty more but I've overrun my 3!

3 consequences

Financial uncertainty. Not an unusual situation but an uncomfortable one. Resolved with time and goodwill and more positivity from the remainers
.....I have confidence that a trading nation with plenty of savvy civil servants and politicians will resolve this. The fall in the £ is part of this.

Increase in cost to travel to Europe because of the removal of FOM.

...but we travel to other countries outside Europe so is it such a big deal?

The financial sectors restriction inside Europe. I think we will need to bite the bullet and pay into the EU to maintain these services. Normal trade within Europe will need to have a Canadian style deal.

I think the big difference between the leavers and the remainers is that the leavers are the optimists and the remainers are pessimists. The remainers need the security blanket of the EU and are afraid of the big wide world. The U.K. is entrepreneurial, free thinking and open minded and we've been channelled into the narrow, beaurocratic world of Europe for too long.

Thanks for the reply olympia, as ever I have questions

Business won't need to be tied to unnecessary EU rules and regs unless they do business with the EU. (Currently all businesses do)

Can you give some examples of such rules and regulations?

We won't need to pay more in than we get out of the EU

Your point about financial services below contrdicts this- We currently get rebates but that will stop so if you are planning on paying for access to the EU for financial services we will be paying more in than we get out.

Our security would be increased as we would have control of our borders.

It's not a free for all at our borders now, we know exactly who comes through border controls and illegal immigrants aren't going to stop

We would be able to support research, deprived communities etc in our own country

We could have done that whilst we were in the EU- why do you think there will be an increased desire to do so now?

We would allow workers to come to areas in a controlled way, so that schools and hospitals aren't overwhelmed.

these services received increased funding where they are under pressure, if the pressure declines so will funding.

The workers who come here would be paid minimum/living wage and be housed in good conditions with access to schools and health facilities.

If that happened who will pay for it, increased cost of labour will either lead to businesses employing fewer people or costs being passed on to consumers.

We would have control of our own laws again

What laws would you like to change?

In theory the additional money would support services in this country.

Where's this additional money coming from? It's looking like we're going to be supporting the likes of Nissan not public services.

We would be free to negotiate favourable trade deals with other countries

Why would we get more favourable trade deals outside the EU than in a trading bloc of 500m people?

Financial uncertainty. Not an unusual situation but an uncomfortable one. Resolved with time and goodwill and more positivity from the Remainers....I have confidence that a trading nation with plenty of savvy civil servants and politicians will resolve this. The fall in the £ is part of this.

Really? You honestly think if Remainers are a bit more positive it will resolve the financial uncertainty just like that?

Increase in cost to travel to Europe because of the removal of FOM...but we travel to other countries outside Europe so is it such a big deal?

The cost of visas is immaterial- the fall in sterling is much more of a problem.

The financial sectors restriction inside Europe. I think we will need to bite the bullet and pay into the EU to maintain these services. Normal trade within Europe will need to have a Canadian style deal.

As above, if we pay for this (if that is even an option) we'll be paying in more than we get out.

I think the big difference between the leavers and Remainers is that leavers are optimists and the Remainers are pessimists

I think the big difference is Remainers are realists and Leavers are fantasists.

From the telegraph

Nor are the costs involved small beer. The Regulatory Policy Committee, an independent government body, recently revealed that new EU rules have imposed £2.3 billion in net costs to businesses since 2013, wiping out the £2.2 billion the UK Government saved cutting domestic red tape during the same period. No wonder independent polling shows that business leaders want a looser, trading relationship with the EU rather than the increasingly regulated political union we are in today

I can't give specifics as my small business is too small but if you check locally?

Currently we are net contributors by a big margin.

We pay this amount in to trade via business and via financial services.
I think it's probably we would pay in a certain amount of that contribution to continue the financial services but have a trade deal for other business. Hopefully like Canada who have swept away 99% of tariffs with no FOM.

So yes, we make concessions financially, but that inevitable.

And as for rebates. Yippee they give us back our own money!

Security. Yes we know who comes through our borders, but if they're from the EU we can't stop them unless we are given information by their countries they are criminals etc. Haven't you read about murderers coming in and killing here? Isolated incidents true, but tell that to victims.

In future people coming here will need a good reason or a job. Most low level criminals won't have a visa.

Security services EU wide will still cooperate because it's in everyone's interest to do so. France and Belgium had appalling security surveillance, unlike ours, so why wouldn't they share information?

Research and support of deprived areas. We are supporting them as the EU money is our money! Also the government have made a commitment to continue financial research support.

The EU hasn't stepped in to support the steel workers when their industry is being decimated. They are not all powerful and generous, any more than government is

I can't give specifics as my small business is too small but if you check locally?

I think that tells its own tale doesn't it

So we've established that some people completely ignored facts and others chose to only read the headlines and not look at the detail because the headline sounded good enough to make them vote the way they did.

I know of hospital services, especially maternity, that are still under severe pressure. The funding is insufficient. The numbers too great.

"feelings" politics have always existed. It's not a new thing or a new idea. Feelings just tend to play a bigger role in referendums than in parliamentary elections, because it's one issue questions where people are not necessarily bound by their usual party allegiances which are often slightly more informed, having formed over time and not in a short and heady space of time.

However, many many people vote based on feelings too in parliamentary elections. Nothing to be done about that,
It's the nature of democracy, it's only as strong as its weakest link, and is, as the famous saying goes, the least worst system there is.

The tragic mistake here and the people to blame is NOT all the people who voted to leave. It's the callous and manipulative small part of the Conservative party who forced Cameron to call the referendum in order to advance their personal careers and interests, without caring at all how this would affect the entire population. They then managed to win by playing up to people's fear of migration, their lack of knowledge and suspicion of the EU and their nostalgia for the lost empire. They did this full well knowing the consequences for the country, bar a few die hard eurosceptic like Davies, Fox and Farrage, who still seem
To believe it's the right thing to do. They don't take any notice of reality, like all true fanatics. Boris Johnson and others in his power seeking camp only campaigned for Brexit to take the power within the Conservative party. Had it not been for these more 'sensible' Brexiters, I don't believe leave would have won. Arrogance and selfishness to the point of insanity.

Tell me some of the laws and rules and regulations we will be free from once we leave the EU.

Are you saying migrant workers should be paid less than UK workers? If the wages were the same and a living wage local people would not be edged out of the labour market by cheap imported labour. That would go a long way to easing people's resentments.

And if employers can't afford to pay minimum wages then they need to take lower profits.

olympia your second 'good' reason was that we won't have to pay into the the away than we get out but you immediately contradicted that by saying we'll need to pay for access to financial services- you can't have it both ways?

One law would be the Scottish imposition of a minimum price on alcohol for a country with horrendous health and social problems due to alcohol abuse.

The EU hasn't stepped in to support the steel workers when their industry is being decimated.

Why should they have done?

That was for our government to sort and they didn't bother.

And if employers can't afford to pay minimum wages then they need to take lower profits.

Ah, of course, why didn't I think of that. That's obviously what every business should and will do.

The additional money would be the net contribution to the EU we would no longer be paying. And the government have said there has been no financial incentive to Nissan just reassurances we will get the best possible deal.

One law would be the Scottish imposition of a minimum price on alcohol for a country with horrendous health and social problems due to alcohol abuse.

We had that one yesterday. It's limited in scope and not necessarily a bad thing that 'nanny state' laws are prohibited.

Can you have some more laws that are a bit more far reaching?

I think our trade deals would be more favourable (and faster) simply because we are not a big bloc. Negotiating with the EU is like towing the biggest iceberg in the world. Hugely inflexible and difficult to manoeuvre.

One word ... Walloon!

Olympia you are ignoring a basic fact. The rest of the EU will not give the UK a trade deal that equals the trading relationship there is now without maintaining free movement of peope. That's been said again and again, yet Brexiters keep going on about this trade deal as if it's as easy as that. You ignore that to other European countries the principle
Of free movement is absolutely fundamental and they will not budge. If you don't want free movement - and Brexit was to a large extent about restricting migration, am I right? - then you won get a great trade deal. You'll get something far worse than what you have now.

Yes there are rebates now and UK will have to pay more for the same things in a merely transactional relationship.

Security services will still cooperate you're right, but if the Uk wants to remain a member of Europol it'll have to pay for it.

And yes, health services are under pressure in the UK. Not because of immigrants but because people voted for a government who privatises the NHS and let's corporate companies make profits out of providing poor services. Let's not confuse things here.

And the government have said there has been no financial incentive to Nissan just reassurances we will get the best possible deal.

See, this is where the whole fantasist/ realist becomes so apparent.

We can't get the 'best' deal if we restrict FOM so whatever happens a compromise has to be made.

The government have assured Nissan it will help them remain competitive - that has to mean some form of compensation if we don't compromise on FOM.

The workers who come here would be paid minimum/living wage and be housed in good conditions with access to schools and health facilities.

We could do that now. We have chosen not to. What makes you think the Government will suddenly develop a social conscience?

It's the callous and manipulative small part of the Conservative party who forced Cameron to call the referendum in order to advance their personal careers and interests, without caring at all how this would affect the entire population.

Quite, who are all wealthy men, so will not be affected as much as you and me.

Small business regs.

'Agency workers regulations'
'Working time directive'

Etc.

It's the callous and manipulative small part of the Conservative party who forced Cameron to call the referendum in order to advance their personal careers and interests, without caring at all how this would affect the entire population.
Indeed

I've not said we will get an equivalent trade deal as we have now. We won't.
Canada has a 99% free (ish) trade deal and no freedom of movement. I'll settle for that.