To think enough is enough, time to have a re-vote on brexit

[jdoe8]

I'm still having problems sleeping with brexit, sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night thinking it was just a nightmare. But its real and with each day it gets worse.

Now the banks are saying they will leave the UK, as we are 80% services and the banks are a very significant part of this it will be catastrophic for the UK economy.

Most of the people i know that voted to brexit now regret their decision so why not have another vote on it?

Larry Margaret Thatcher was extremely pro-Europe. She created a successful economy (for some, not sure it was such a great time for those in the mining towns) largely on the basis of our EEC membership. She enticed the Japanese car-manufactures here with the lure of barrier-free trade with the rest of Europe and re-balanced the UK economy towards the service sector in the knowledge that our banks etc could provide services throughout Europe. She was also instrumental in negotiating the extremely favourable financial arrangements we had with the EU. I have no doubt that she is spinning in her grave at what the current Tories are up to.

Some fair points in your last post about conservatism though Larry.

Maggie was very pro Europe and understood the economic advantages to us by the creation of a large trading block, a capitalists dream.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11598879

A good summary on Maggie on Europe. This is the BBC, hardly pro Brexiters. She was very pro common market, she did not want to see the EC increase its powers.

I not sure it is quite as simple as saying Thatcher would support Remain

she strongly opposed the influence of EU regulations basically she wanted access to the single market and not much more - the EU was very different in the 70/80's to what it is now

Maggie was very pro Europe and understood the economic advantages to us by the creation of a large trading block, a capitalists dream.

I don't think she was so keen on the more federalist dreams of the EU.

This is an interesting few minutes read ...

Sick of hearing the same twats who urged us to vote leave on the grounds it would restore the sovereignty of parliament argue that the result is somehow binding. Parliament is sovereign and cannot be bound by the result of the referendum which, in legal and constitutional terms, is no more than an opinion poll with delusions of grandeur.
Ours is a representative democracy. It is no more undemocratic, under the rules of our democracy, to re run the referendum than it was to run it in the first place. By the time we get to understanding what the terms of exit will be, a referendum may well produce a different result.

Karlos,

Equally, those remainers passionately arguing for the sovereignty of parliament are those most keen to give it away.

Touche

Not many people I know actually voted to leave , a few did and I have had the odd discussion with them about it , one voted to leave because it would mean an extra £350 million for the NHS , others voted to leave because they didn't like the way EU law was foisted upon us , when I asked which EU laws they particularly didn't like , not one of them could give me an example.

I voted remain because I honestly didn't and still don't really understand how being a member of the EU is such a terrible thing , that and no-one was able to explain how leaving would be better , with facts and figures and stuff . Now there has been a vote to leave , there are still no hard facts or figures to tell me how it is going to better for the UK as a whole .

Larrygrylls, give away our sovereignty how exactly?

Sovereignty had hair become a buzzword and devoid of meaning in all this.

What sovereignty had we lost exactly?

And if we had lost it, how did it harm us exactly?

Winky,

Is your last question to hedge your second last one?! The reality is that the Westminster parliament is no longer sovereign over vast swathes of our laws. Can we block a European arrest warrant? Can parliament overrule the European court of human rights? If it cannot, it is not sovereign. That is the meaning of the word.

How has it harmed us? How about you ask Andrew Symeou?

www.euronews.com/2015/04/27/reform-calls-after-figures-highlight-fundamental-flaws-of-european-arrest

winkywinkola

Larrygrylls, give away our sovereignty how exactly?

You're wasting the time ... that's a soundbite meme, like "taking back control" and (the jewel in the Brexit crown) "fed up with EU laws". Except when pressed (and boy, do you have to press !) they can't actually name a law imposed by the EU. Lots of debunked urban myth fairy stories. But precious few facts.

Here's a leaver facing facts ...

Can parliament overrule the European court of human rights

Why do you think parliament will be able to override the European Court of Human rights when we leave the EU?

not all leavers are racist, far from it - but they put themselves in that box when they voted for what was essentially a racist/fascist movement.

It wasn't. And your sentence doesn't even make sense.

If all leavers are not racist, then there must be non-racist reasons to vote leave. So it is not a racist, never mind fascist (?!?!) movement.

Can parliament overrule the European court of human rights

Of course. UK parliament is supreme, and that has never changed.

Whether it would want to is another matter. Civilised governments the world over - UK included - tend to take a dim view of governments that flout international treaties. And the UK is a treaty a signatory to the ECHR (which is nothing to do with the EU, by the way).

The UK parliament could happily withdraw from the ECHR whenever it likes, and anyone who pretends it "can't because of the EU" is an idiot not worth engaging with.

I can see s new pattern emerging now. The Remainers will be the ones blamed in all this now. We would be the ones who will end up being blamed for hindering the process,destabilising the markets and destroying the economy.

Give it time to work. After all the EU has had 40 years
I have no problem with this but it's probably the whole of my life you are asking for. Thatcher was pro EU. EU benefited the economy massively. my generation has faced one massive recession and haven't recovered from it yet. Stop throwing our future for some mad dream about sovereignty where the only example you can give is of the European court of Justice. Is there anything else you got larry?
Someone said on the last page about doing trade with other countries than EU. Like Africa/south amaerixa/India. Here is May's own view on that.

larry
On your point regarding the cultures across EU being very different: what's your problem with it? So long as cultures are human and civil to each other, I don't see even a single problem with people practicing their cultures around me. In fact it increases the beauty of this world. Makes it interesting. I find this comment from you disturbing. It shows a kind of contempt/dismissive behaviour towards other cultures and could hint towards you feeling superior than those cultures too. That's not true. You are here because you have great centres of knowledge (who voted Remain by landlslides) and because UK was propped up on. the loot of the colonial times. It can't last forever. We are a small island. Nearly No natural resources compared to the whole Europe combined. We need that land mass and boy do we need it soon. other cultures are beautiful too. We need to have an open mind to support our great universities (that are our only hope may be if the banks leave and no one has any clue so far about what exactly will we manufacture here afterwards) and they need immigrants. What do you think larry?

Referendums are always a bad idea, I doubt the majority on both sides truly researched the consequences of staying in or leaving the EU would be. Referendums have been used for dodgy reasons throughout history and just because a majority vote in a direction doesn't make them right.

This result will be catastrophic for UKs economy especially since it is heavily based in sales and services. I bet many don't really care, however when the government can no longer afford to look after the vulnerable when people start losing their jobs and small businesses go under they will care.

Sad but I have my own plans to protect me and mine ultimately this vote has shown me that everyone is in it for themselves and so I plan to follow that philosophy.

I doubt the majority on both sides truly researched the consequences of staying in or leaving the EU would be

For those voting to remain, there wasn't much research needed. We've been in the EU 40 years so pretty much know how it works for our everyday lives.

It was the Leave camp who who were making extraordinary claims. Something I am sure the late, much missed Carl Sagan would have commented on.

larry
Hope you one back and answer my questions which I summarise here again:

1. What laws do you think that the European court of justice made or stopped us from making that caused any kind of trouble to us? Please also compare the pros of those with the cons of leaving EU.

1. Why do you think leaving EU is easier because the rest of the Europe has a diverse and different culture than us? Please again compare this with the cons of leaving EU.

For those voting to remain, there wasn't much research needed. We've been in the EU 40 years so pretty much know how it works for our everyday lives.

^ this. I know dozens of people who came to UK in my university only based on the thought that UK is open to all and Europe is at your door step so long as you work hard and pay your fair share. I also happen to know great researchers in a field where UK badly needs every single bit of talent it could find who have categorically told their groups they are leaving once their current obligations are done (towards their students mainly) because they dont want o work for a society that is not inclusive anymore. Mind you, these are the kind of people whose talent is itself an international passport for them. Whose loss?

For those voting to remain, there wasn't much research needed. We've been in the EU 40 years so pretty much know how it works for our everyday lives.

I'm not following your argument here. Firstly, if having been in the EU for 40 years tells you enough to know that you want to stay in, then surely it tells someone else enough to know that they don't want to stay in?

And secondly, the EU and the world are not in a steady state, they are changing. So the question isn't whether membership of the EU was a good thing or not for the last 40 years, but whether it will be in the future.

wrongtrouser
You say "Firstly, if having been in the EU for 40 years tells you enough to know that you want to stay in, then surely it tells someone else enough to know that they don't want to stay in?"
Sure it can. But again, that side should present arguments why is it bad to stay in EU. Remain was fine with the way it was going though we all have said time and again that EU is far from perfect. So we keep saying we should work on it. If you want a drastic change, you should bring in an argument shouldn't you?
Your second point about EU being in a good shape previously may be but not in future hence the desire to leave:

1. Please give us reasons why it would be more economical to spend so much time and energy and an absolutely crap load of (how much has the BoE spent from our taxes since June referendum to prop up the £? How much is that compared to what we have paid in the EU and will have pay for the next half century ?) money on a split rather than worked by on it while staying in it? How much if the UK (specially the Leave voters did vote in the European Parliament elections so far? If not, why not? And if you don't know, why do you not know because it's you who is supporting Leave.
2. If the future is the concern, then why not weigh options through the eyes of the ones whose future will be affected mainly? The younger generation voted for Remain overall. Despite us not allowing the 16 year olds. I have come across people on Mumsnet who voted Remain for their children and grandchildren. What do you think on this?

Wrong..you can say that but there are two things. One is that it's very easy to critique but if no credible alternatives are suggested then it's a ridiculous risk to take to vote leave.

Secondly many of the criticisms of the EU were frankly spurious and the product of 40 years of misinformation by anti eu politicians.

Change in the way we manage our economic and political interaction with other countries, or global challenges is best done in collaboration with other countries not in an isolationist way.

I'm not following your argument here. Firstly, if having been in the EU for 40 years tells you enough to know that you want to stay in, then surely it tells someone else enough to know that they don't want to stay in?

It's a good point. So what did "out" mean ? Ah, there's the rub. It wasn't actually explained. (The clue to that is the lack of any clarity 4 months on).

And secondly, the EU and the world are not in a steady state, they are changing. So the question isn't whether membership of the EU was a good thing or not for the last 40 years, but whether it will be in the future.

Again, a good point. But in a world where power-bloc are (re) assembling, not dissembling, it seems rather odd to believe being smaller and weaker is a better option than as part of a larger whole.

It's like living a neighbourhood. My neighbourhood, to be exact. Whilst I may not be totally enthralled by everything, I know my neighbours, know someone will take my parcels in if I'm not in. Hell, if I'm out on a site visit, my wheelie bins get put back - and I've put back neighbours bins when they're out.

So what research do I need to do, if I intend staying ?

But if you want me to move into a new estate - and be the first occupant there - speaking for myself I would like to know a hell of a lot more about the deal before I even considered moving.

And now, post vote and result, it only takes a tiny proportion of Leave voters to say "well that's not what I voted for" to call the whole result into question. Especially as it's axiomatic that whatever happens, 48% of the population didn't vote for it to start with.

I feel sorry, in a "oh dear, your actions have hurt me, but I can't blame you" way for Leave voters. They are copping an awful lot of flack for being given the chance to express their opinions. The real culprit is that git Cameron and his yellowbelly trick of using the promise of a referendum to sucker people into voting Tory, and then delivering a dogs breakfast of a poll - that would have embarrassed a high school debating club with it's naivete. And where's he now ?

I find myself idly wondering if there is an ePetition to prevent him receiving any "honours" in the future. Unless it's Lord Cameron of Cockup.